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AKutzer
Trad climber
Austin, TX
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 22, 2005 - 01:10pm PT
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So I got tired of waiting for part one to load (it was obviously popular, and was taking forever), and started a new thread, related loosely to the same question.
Here's my question, for those of you (us) that believe that there is some superior being out there that had a hand in creating life: so how does it work now?
Is that superior being (we'll call him or her God) still around?
Is God still watching, all-knowing, all-powerful?
Or did God simply start life off and sit back and watch the show?
Most of the people who wrote in on Part 1 seemed to think that some or most of the Bible is screwed up in some way, either by translation mistakes or whatever, and so what do we now believe?
What happens when we die?
Do we believe in the end of the world and the second coming of Jesus? Do we believe in Jesus, or is he myth like some of the things in Genesis or Revelations?
What do you believe are God's current characteristics and level of involvement?
Do you believe there is heaven? Hell? Satan?
Just interested, and still formulating my own opinions about all of these things and more.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 22, 2005 - 07:47pm PT
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part one loads on Netscape, when e™ balks.
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Ouch!
climber
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May 22, 2005 - 09:30pm PT
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TR, maybe what you see is nature, which is not good or bad. It just is. It can show us beautiful flowers to make us warm and fuzzy, then kill 100K with an earthquake or some horrible disease. The capacity of life to change and adapt to nature's hissy fits is evolution.
We create our stories from our life experiences and they help to sustain us until we get crossways of nature. We wish for things until we convince ourselves they are real. Then we are truly insane.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 22, 2005 - 09:58pm PT
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Creation was not a one-time deal, rather it's an ongoing gig. And you can't separate the creator from the creation. It's not like there's "God," then there's reality. Everything is intertwined. That's my take on it anyhow.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 23, 2005 - 02:27am PT
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Seems like we've been discussing a bit of deep stuff lately and I hesitate to write about this stuff because I don't like it when politics or religion separate me from folks who I otherwise enjoy and appreciate, but you asked:
Folks tend to try to understand God in terms they can understand. Many tend to visualize God as very human and somewhat like a stern boss or strict father figure. But it's obvious that any being that created a universe that takes light millions of years to traverse, and manifested the vast complexity of even this world, that being is not an easy target for human comprehension.
God created everything out of his own being. If there were some separate material for God to use to make all this, it would be a type of God itself. The book of John says God created the world out of the "word." Our words are vibrating energy structured by information that originate out of ourselves. Not a bad explanation to a primitive people thousands of years ago.
But even though God is vast, transcendent, and beyond all comprehension, God is also intimate and immediate, closer than the closest. Everyone says God is in heaven. Where is that? Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within.
God is Spirit which has as its nature consciousness. Would you expect God to be without consciousness? We read that we are created in God's image. Our essential nature is then Spirit which has as its nature consciousness. What's the last thing of yourself that you would ever sacrifice? Your awareness, of course. That's how we have an intimate link with the being that encompasses countless beings, of which there are 6 billion of just humans on this tiny world alone. A spark of the divine is within each of us as our soul and thus, we are keeping track of our own sins and writing our own story in the book of life. Judge not, lest you be judged.
You can think of this world as the dream of God. The reason for it is not comprehensible in rational human awareness. The purpose of our existence in this world is not our pleasure and luxury. The experiences we have in life, bad and good, have the effect of refining and evolving our Spirit. If you look at the course of your own life with openness and clarity, you might see an abstract sort of perfection in it. Everything that ever happened to you has brought you to where you are right now. What you are right now is reflected all around you as your life. Change within and your world will change.
Jesus may have been a pure expression of that divine being, but don't get hung up on one historical figure being the sole expression of divinity. Jesus was talking about his highest nature when he said he was the only way. You can't live without water, but Agua, H2O, and Pani are the same thing, and in a pinch, you can still get along with orange juice, or even cola or malt liquor.
So "what you believe" is a lot less important than "what is in your heart." My feeling is that God doesn't know what religion you are. God sees directly to the heart where that totality of what you are is revealed.
I know this kind of philosophy runs counter to what many folks believe. Believing we have the only way builds religions and makes us feel superior. I respect your path whatever you think, and I'm always open to deepening my understanding, so don't worry about me. If the highest power will grace me with greater understanding, I'm always listening. "Seek and you will find" Just be open to the fact that what you find might not be what you expected.
Peace
karl
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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May 23, 2005 - 08:06am PT
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What is "a creation of man to explain the creation of man"?
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Kirk Kobmann
Trad climber
Milford, MI
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May 23, 2005 - 11:11am PT
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"Seems like we've been discussing a bit of deep stuff lately and I hesitate to write about this stuff because I don't like it when politics or religion separate me from folks who I otherwise enjoy and appreciate"
Karl:
The only way this subject will separate you from others is if you let it. If this subject does separate you from others, it's because you "enjoy and appreciate" on the basis of agreement with you. (But you don't seem to have that problem).
Also, your post reveals your faith - something of your understanding of who you are, who God is, and who you are in relation to God. That's all anyone can have - a faith of one's own understanding. Don't get me wrong; I'm not advocating relativistic Truth. Believing reason to be part of the picture of Truth, I also need to believe that Truth is other than my understanding; logic demands it and the word Truth implies it. (A well-known philosophy professor at the University of Michigan once convinced me that Truth is necessarily objective).
Assuming for the sake of argument that Truth is objective and not relative, maybe Jesus meant exactly what he said? Maybe he did mean that he is THE WAY.
C.S. Lewis - famous Oxford Don of scary intellectual prowess - one said that upon making a thorough and critical examination of the claims of Christ, one is necessarily left with two possibilities. He is either the Son of God, the one and only WAY to God, or he is a liar, lunatic, or worse. (Loose quote).
While I would never agrue against your desire for a personal faith. I would argue that Christ's claims about himself do not permit the validity of your analysis regarding him. Make no mistake, he DID claim to be THE way, THE Truth, and THE Life. What one does with that claim is, again, entirely a personal matter.
Largo:
Coming from a Biblical perspective, I would agree with you. The Christian Scripture (ex. NIV Bible) indicates that everything was created through Him and for Him and has it's substance in Him (speaking of Christ's pre-existence and power to create). There's also a verse somewhere in there that indicates that we know Him (the God the Father) through his creation. I wouldn't go so far as to say that creation is progressive because, personally, I don't believe revelation is progressive; but creation is certainly dynamic.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 23, 2005 - 01:11pm PT
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You guys are high.
Come back down to Earth.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 23, 2005 - 02:50pm PT
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Kirk wrote:
"Assuming for the sake of argument that Truth is objective and not relative, maybe Jesus meant exactly what he said? Maybe he did mean that he is THE WAY.
C.S. Lewis - famous Oxford Don of scary intellectual prowess - one said that upon making a thorough and critical examination of the claims of Christ, one is necessarily left with two possibilities. He is either the Son of God, the one and only WAY to God, or he is a liar, lunatic, or worse. (Loose quote).
While I would never agrue against your desire for a personal faith. I would argue that Christ's claims about himself do not permit the validity of your analysis regarding him. Make no mistake, he DID claim to be THE way, THE Truth, and THE Life. What one does with that claim is, again, entirely a personal matter."
Hi Kirk
The separation that I was worried about concerned not putting folks off who believe that those who don't believe as they do will roast in hell for eternity.
Knowing how to interpret Jesus' claim also means having know what "He" he was talking about.
I would point you to my statement regarding Jesus being "the WAY"
"Jesus was talking about his highest nature when he said he was the only way. You can't live without water, but Agua, H2O, and Pani are the same thing, and in a pinch, you can still get along with orange juice, or even cola or malt liquor."
In other words, if Jesus is the aspect of God that links humans to the divine, of course the Way is through him, but that also means he is way beyond one 2000 year old guy who lived in a limited time and place and planet.
If Jesus is "the Way," are we talking about the physical body of Christ or his Spirit? What's the name and nature that Spirit now? Did you know that neither Jesus nor his followers EVER called him Jesus. Jesus is a greek translation of Yeshua or something similar. Are you assuming that Yeshua knows that we're praying to him when we call him Jesus? If that is the case, can't we assume that God knows that we're praying to him even if we think Jesus was a blue-eyed conservative? If your kids called you DA-DA and didn't understand your true nature, would you roast em in Hell?
And don't forget, in the New Testament Jesus said that he had come before and people didn't recognize him. What's that about? Was his name Jesus before?
Still, I respect your beliefs. Even to claim to know exactly what Jesus said means to believe the Bible is completely accurate and infallable both in it's writing, compilation, and transmission. No such belief is truly necessary to recieve the blessings of Christ and his teaching in my experience.
As an example, a copy of the book of Revelations was just found that's 100 years older than any copy in existence. In this copy, the mark of the Beast is 616 instead of 666. Wonder how many folks got lynched because they were associated with 666 somehow throughout history?
Peace
Karl
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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May 23, 2005 - 03:21pm PT
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If you want to know what science has to say about how we got here, you should study science. Read, take classes. If you want to know about how a creator fits into the equation you should read the Bible. This is the sole source of the creation idea. There is no other religion that has the kind of history as Judaism that talks about a creator. Of all the religious documents and dogma in the world the Bible is the only authority on the subject of creation. I strongly suggest you read it. If you consider yourself a scholar to any degree, which if you’re interested enough to read this thread then you are then you should read the Bible.
The book of John (since Karl mentioned it) is a good place to start. Although not a traditional place to start a study on creation, it’s actually a great place to start it. Then read Genesis too. Exodus, Acts and Romans (and Hebrews if you’re familiar with the 5 books of Moses) are also excellent books to start with. I recommend you get a version written in modern English like the NIV, New American Standard or The Message.
Why read the Bible? Besides the topic of creation the Bible has more value and cultural relevance than most people know. There are many aspects of our western lives that are Biblical. I didn’t know how much the Bible was in effect in our world until I starting reading it. I’m truly amazed by it. And I’m especially amazed that most people (even religious people) are completely unaware of this reality. There simply is no resource that is more culturally relevant that the Bible today. The sad truth is that most people know little about it. And many of those who (supposedly) do have not read the Bible in its entirety, nor spend much of their time diligently doing so. The last time I asked someone if they read the Bible they said yes. Then I ask if they had read the whole thing. The answer was no. Sad! I honestly do not understand why Academia has pushed the Bible (as a scholarly resource) out of schools. People like to think they know the Bible pretty well simply because they have spent a lot of time around religious people or religious things. That is false. I know because I fell into this category. I used to think I knew what the Bible said. Then I read it. I found out what a moron I was. And I’ve only leaned how valuable it is through reading it. I didn’t appreciate it until I actually opened it for myself. I now understand why it’s printed in more languages and sold more copies than any other book in history.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 23, 2005 - 04:22pm PT
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It would be interesting to know what scholars (non-fundamentalist) believe about the origins of the book of Genisis. While the first 5 books of the Bible are traditionally ascribed to Moses, that seems unlikely since:
1. They also talk about Moses' death and afterwards.
2. It is written within that Moses was the most humble man on the face of the earth. (not a particuarly humble statement to write yourself.
Read Gilgamesh for example, and ask yourself how it relates to the Genisis Story.
Folks who study any religious books would do well to study some related aspects as well:
1. The cultural beliefs and tradtions at the time.
2. What the secular scholars and even naysayers claim. There are some things that the folks selling the faith (whatever it is) don't like to tell you.
3. Study other paths as well. Sometimes it add perspective to your own path. (just like some knowledge of Mountaineering and wall climbing might add perspective to a sport climber, or reading both sides of a bolting debate.)
Some folks might say that this kind of openness is a threat to keeping the integrity of the faith. I disagree.
peace
karl
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 23, 2005 - 04:24pm PT
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Kirk wrote: "I wouldn't go so far as to say that creation is progressive because, personally, I don't believe revelation is progressive; but creation is certainly dynamic."
Unless I'm misinterpreting this, you're sugesting the "one-time" philosophy, where in one great act by fiat, "God" created us in whole cloth and also revealed the "truth" for all time. This basically nails down creation and revelation to fixed points in time and space, whereas my experience shows me that creation, revelation, time and space are much more fluid, and anything that every happened is likewise hapening now.
JL
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Ouch!
climber
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May 23, 2005 - 04:38pm PT
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The Bible is the only proof of the Bible.
James Michener's novel, "The Source", offers what seems to me to be a plausible scenario for how our Bump in the Night stories originated.
People seeking answers and finding none, may just make some up to get through the day.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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May 23, 2005 - 05:48pm PT
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Jah-Weh: "I am."
Pop-eye: "I yam what I yam."
Conclusion:
God eats spinach.*
If you don't believe me, go climb Olive Oil in Red Rocks.
Brutus
*And God is spinach, eating itself.
P.S.
Translation for the humor-impaired:
"Beauty is eternity looking at itself in a mirror.
And you are eternity.
And you are the mirror."
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Kirk Kobmann
Trad climber
Milford, MI
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May 23, 2005 - 07:25pm PT
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Karl:
You've asked some very insightful questions (rhetorically or not). So much so that responding in full would be impossible in this forum. But I will offer what I can given scope and time limitations.
Yes, I am aware of Jesus' name. "Iesous" (ee-ay-sooce') is the Greek word from which the English "Jesus" is transliterated. "Iesous" was derived from the Hebrew "Yehowshuwa`" (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah), which in turn in connected to the Hebrew proper for Jesus, "Yeshua". (Messianic Jews gravitate to this latter name). In the Old Testament, God has many names; each name and a variety of compound names are meant to reveal an aspect of His character. In "Yehowshuwa`" and it's derivatives is the idea of God's power and desire to save the lost.
"In other words, if Jesus is the aspect of God that links humans to the divine, of course the Way is through him, but that also means he is way beyond one 2000 year old guy who lived in a limited time and place and planet.
If Jesus is "the Way," are we talking about the physical body of Christ or his Spirit? What's the name and nature that Spirit now?" --Karl
For a Biblical answer to the first paragraph, refer to the 1st chapter of the Book of John. You're in dead on agreement with the Bible so far as the pre-existence and eternality of Christ is concerned. Your second paragraph is addressed by theology of Incarnation and Sorteriology. The densely packed nutshell answer is that both Christ's Spirit and body are essentially The Way - the sacrifice of His body made efficacious by the perfection of His Spirit are the Biblical basis for salvation.
Largo:
"Unless I'm misinterpreting this, you're sugesting the "one-time" philosophy, where in one great act by fiat, "God" created us in whole cloth and also revealed the "truth" for all time. This basically nails down creation and revelation to fixed points in time and space, whereas my experience shows me that creation, revelation, time and space are much more fluid, and anything that every happened is likewise hapening now."
No, I am not arguing for a "one-time" philosophy wherein creation and revelation are somehow dependent upon time and space. Again, arguing from a Biblical perspective, time and space are constructs or emanations from the Mind of God and, as such, are less than Him. And since God, by any Biblical definition, is reality at its fullest - Truth - one can begin to see how a static reality can appear fluid, at least from a human perspective. Indeed, Biblical Scripture indicates a never ending growth and enjoyment in the Presence of God even as God Himself claims to never change and be "without shadow of turning."
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Ouch!
climber
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May 23, 2005 - 07:38pm PT
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Hey Kirk. Are you some kind of Fundy preacher?
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WBraun
climber
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May 23, 2005 - 08:08pm PT
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What is a Fundy Preacher? I never heard of that term.
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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May 23, 2005 - 08:15pm PT
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sounds like Sundy
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 23, 2005 - 08:19pm PT
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Quote: "No, I am not arguing for a "one-time" philosophy wherein creation and revelation are somehow dependent upon time and space."
Not dependent upon, rather originally occuring in a specific time and space. This old perspective posits the "truth" as happening with the birth of Jesus, suggesting that the revelation of that moment will never be equaled again in time and space except by Jesus himself, who operates outside time and space. This seeks to limit "true" revelation to Jesus and Jesus alone, which is not only all-or-nothing thinking (a thought distortion), but blasphemous, in my opinion.
"Again, arguing from a Biblical perspective, time and space are constructs or emanations from the Mind of God and, as such, are less than Him."
My experience suggest to me that it is artificial to separate out the mind of God from the emanations. "Form is emptiness, and emptiness is form. Exactly."
One and the same. Inextricably intertwined.
My take on it anyhow...
JL
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Ouch!
climber
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May 23, 2005 - 08:33pm PT
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Werner, Fundy is internet lingo for fundamentalist. These may include the 6K earthers, snakehandlers, footwashers, Republicans, Campbellites, Evangelicals, Prayer cloth salesmen, funkyhaired TV preachers who get words of knowledge from God that hemorrhoids are miraculously healed by a love offering,the Taliban, and the Bush theocratic council of progress tyranny. I may have left out a few. New ones are springing up as we speak, as new gods are created by necessity and convenience.
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