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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Feb 12, 2005 - 01:37pm PT
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Sorry, Nature, just replying to #1 of Pete's better way. After what happened to you, I can understand why you want no biners, nowhere, nohow. I'll talk haulbags while you two sort it out.
Just this: the way I climb is you lead a pitch, haul the pig, and get on with your lives. Sometimes you can't hear your partner and the simplest way to know he's off belay is for him to just pull in the slack on the haul line and start hauling. Then you know he's certainly off, you're fixed, and you can jug. Soloing I just take in slack (depending on how traversing the pitch was) lower down, lower the bag out, jug.
As you were.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2005 - 01:45pm PT
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sort what out? :-) Nothing but us pigs and us marmots eating grass. Nothing to sort out... move along.... nuttin to see...
Yeah yo, that's pretty much how I've always done it. After a while, and after a bit of discussion with your partner, you get your system to be the same (and predictable). If I can't hear and the bag is starting to go up (taking weight off the belay) I know I have to cut that bad boy loose cuz he's hauling.
Same with belaying - when he screams off belay he also means lead line is fixed. I know I can now jug the second Or, if the ropes all stop and then a little while later the haul line goes tight, you know he's off belay and has fixed your cord. Gotta move quick at that point.
This is all assumed only after you've had the discusion with your partner that that is indeed how things will work every time.
addressing #1) - which has it's valid points but isn't the end-all way of doing things. I understand the advantage of using the extra cord for lowering out. I've never used the system and probably never will. I prefer to always have my pig in the end of the haul line. In case I happen to really weld that knot shut it sure would suck to do it 50' up the cord. I also have never switched ends. The disadvantage is I need to restack the haul line in the rope-ho. no biggie.
We also started using two lead lines at one point. Each of us using one line. It meant we had a backup (just in case). It also meant that I could clip "my" lead" line to the pigs powerpoint and it'd get hauled up. I'd then back up my gri-gri to that line as I clean (meaning I'm anchored in on two cords). It always made me feel more warn and fuzzy that way. Just gotta make sure the guy above knows your cord is in use. The second cord would also be used as the lower out (but I've since gone to using the cordalette with the meunter-mule dock system).
And then finally... really getting back on topic:
What is this little thing for?
I know pete suggested it's a strap to carry your bag but that isn't it (I think he's talking about the straps that look like handles on the Fish bag?). The tab is tacked in under the strap about 3" so it looks pretty bomber. Duece didn't provide an instruction manual. I'm confused and wondering...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 12, 2005 - 05:54pm PT
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Nice photo.
As per Deuce's email below, that might be an OK place to put the Docking Tether. I keep my Docking Tether on the straps so the pig hangs from two points - I wonder how a pig would hang from only a single point of attachment? Would it end up hanging with the opening "long and narrow" and less "round", therefore harder to get into?
All my pigs are in California, so I can't look at 'em to see, but it might be a good thing to try sometime. If I remember.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 12, 2005 - 05:55pm PT
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"Duece didn't provide an instruction manual. I'm confused and wondering...."
The answer: deuce4@mac.com
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2005 - 08:18pm PT
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The Happy Swivel
http://www.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?MotRecherche=Quick+Search&Langue=en&Activite=&Famille=&Produit=389&Conseil=&SousFamille=&News=
Looks as though Petzl demonstrates in their directions
http://www.petzl.com/ProduitsServices/PS_389_1.pdf
for the swivel that it is pete that has the swivel upside down. Though I agree it would deflect the rock better if left un protected, it seems to make more sense to have more attachement points below than above. Adding the oil filter to do the protecting pretty much makes the deflection concept moot.
Though in a certain sense it really doesn't matter. It's certinaly just as strong either way. I'm flippin' mine back.
It's also worth checking out the Swivel L.
Edit (addtion): A most excellent idea, Werner. I did so. Duece responds with:
"if it is sewn into the 2" flat, it makes for a spot you can clip a daisy chain off and allow the bag to hang without the straps in the way. Make sure to back it up always though.
cheers
John Middendorf
"
sounds like the answer to my question. So there we have it, it's an attachment point for docking the pig. Guess what I'm going to use it for?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 13, 2005 - 12:32pm PT
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Here's my rig, though rather more sophisticated. You can click the photo as it is a link to itself, and there you will find a very detailed explanation of everything you see.
It includes the following extras:
 Two pigs instead of one
Far End Hauling System [for hauling the bag from the bag] - absolutely imperative when soloing
Lockers on BOTH sides of the swivel to maintain Degrees Of Freedom. Note that the upper locker that attaches the rope to the Inverted Wall Hauler is facing directly towards you at 90 degrees. I maintain it is madness to not do use lockers here, as sooner or later it is a guaranteed journey to the Land Of Enhosement. If you do not believe me, watch what happens to the other rig pictured here when the pig rolls across the face five or ten times
Note that the backup locker with the alpine butterfly knot is ABOVE the swivel, not below it. The excess haul line below the butterfly knot is the Lower-Out Line, and its location allows the pig[s] to rotate across a less-than-vertical wall. Note that you MUST have a swivel when using the Far End Hauler!
I do not bother with the funnel rope protector when rigging the Far End Hauler - it is unnecessary since there is no knot, and it tends to get in the way when operating the thing. I haven't yet had a problem with the inverted Wall Hauler catching on anything
Other stuff you see:
The striped red double cord on the right pig is the Docking Tether. You can see it is attached to a Mexican locker whose gate is secured with yellow duct tape, and attached to the Right Suspension Point Locker. I use the Mexican locker there partially for an extra Degree of Freedom, and mostly so the Docking Tether doesn't get "pinched" by the loaded sling, which would be a locker if you were using a single pig rig
You can see that the right hauling strap on the Right Pig has been permanently shortened, and that I use a type of mini-Docking Tether here - somewhat turquoise in colour - which I call a Haul Bag Strap Load Release Knot Cord, to attach this strap to the Right Suspension Point. This allows the pig to be opened easily under tension, and then closed again, and tied to the desired tightness so the pig hangs perfectly vertically. Note that these cords are on the OUTSIDE of the pigs
There appear to be five Catch Lines - starting at Wee-Wee the Big Wall Crab and going left to right, there are three on the Left Pig - turquoise, purple, and orange-black. On the Right Pig, to the right of the red-striped Docking Tether, there are two more Catch Lines - red and green-yellow
The three Catch Lines on Pig Left, and the two Catch Lines on Pig Right, are attached to their own mexicanized crabs whose gates are also secured with yellow duct tape
Looking at the rock, I can see that this was the rig I used to solo Lunar Eclipse
Dr. Piton does not purport to teach the Best Way or the Only Way, merely the Better Way, and the Better Way is whatever works best for YOU. Dr. Piton Technology is like a smorgassbord - take what you like and put it on your plate, and leave the rest of the stuff you don't like in the bowl. There is a large selection of bowls in the photo above, but just because you are rigging a pig does not mean you have to eat like a pig.
One thing you should never leave in the bowl are your Degrees of Freedom. Buy some lockers, or grab some old standard crabs and some duct tape.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 13, 2005 - 01:00pm PT
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It’s ok Pete,....... nature just wants to stick his finger in the fan and see what happens just like we all do at times.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Nor. CA
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Feb 13, 2005 - 04:23pm PT
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Nature said:
"Moof - do mean kneejerk in that I'm going to extremes with this? That may be true, but I've thought this out for quite some time. It ain't kneejerk if I've thought about it this long. I'll repeat it yet again - I'm taking the advice from someone I deeply respect and I'm just trying to make sure I do what he suggested."
It just seems that you are throwing the bath out with the baby water (or something like that). Somehow in the rigging a biner dropped your pigs, so now all biners need to be eliminated. "Joe" concluded that everything needed to be doubled and tripled up for redundancy, making for a pretty good cluster and shortage of slings and lockers. I see the logic in both cases, but just don't agree with the conclusions.
From "Joe" and Mr Steeler's comments it sounded like the cluster factor was high, and the pigs droppage was the climax of the story, and not the entire story. In other words it sounded like if the pig's hadn't been dropped, it was just a matter of time before something else stupid was going to happen. Of course, much of this came from "Joe" who didn't see a problem using a sharp knife in the dark to clean tie-offs from fixed pins, and who ripped up my rope's sheeth with his stupid Tibloc backup (happened on the same clean job as the knife wielding). I'm sure there was exageration and distortion involved.
I do however enjoy the discussion of rigging techniques. It would be a whole lot nicer if the Canadian Assassin would stick to contributing new stuff, and not puffing his chest over stuff he already ranted about at length. I grow weary.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Feb 13, 2005 - 04:37pm PT
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You can probably find the mysterious knot if you look for the Ring Bend Tie In Knot.
It is supposed to be easy to untie after loading. I tied it a few times and decided I'd never use it, but it is in the AMGA manual as a tie in knot.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2005 - 07:34am PT
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Werner... not my finger... my tongue. Too proud of my thumbs to get 'em anywhere near a fan.
Moof - I hardly want to get started. Redundancy... I'll get started there. "Joe" fixed the jug line on one piece of webbing - attached webbing to the two anchors, twisted webbing to an x, and put one biner on the thing and called it a fixed line. I about tossed the ass off the rock when I jugged that line. I freaked out when I figured out that's what I was jugging on. Not as bad as the meunter-death knot but... but... redundancy? gimme a break!
BTW, nothing else was going to happen up high, because we (Rich and I) had already decided we were retreating - this after watching Jim "lead" his pitch by tossing his tribloc on the fixed lines and climbing. He has lessons on redundancy?
"Of course, much of this came from "Joe" who didn't see a problem using a sharp knife in the dark to clean tie-offs from fixed pins, and who ripped up my rope's sheeth with his stupid Tibloc backup (happened on the same clean job as the knife wielding). I'm sure there was exageration and distortion involved"
*ding* Mission control, we have a problem. Moof, that's just the short list of stupid things, huh?
And as far as pete posting old stuff, it just makes it that much easier to read right over.
It would be a whole lot nicer if the Canadian Assassin would stick to contributing new stuff, and not puffing his chest over stuff he already ranted about at length
I second that!
hey pete, your swivel is upside down.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Feb 14, 2005 - 10:48am PT
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Nature -- I understand your desire to test out a new system. It happens to most of us when we're trying to maximize our efficiency and safety on the wall. Coiler knows his shizzle and he has definitely found a process that works for him. You may like it; you may get hosed.
I think you'll find the latter, but whatever works for you, bro. As you know, I don't care much for Pete's schtick, but he presents some very good ideas in terms of wall systems. Some work for me; some don't. You don't have to embrace the man to justify giving some of his systems a shot. It's openmindedness that is enabling you to give Coilers systems a try. I hope you'll have the same openmindedness to giving Pete's idea a shot. And then, based on your real-world experiences with both systems, make the choice that works best for you.
Ed
*Side note. To Pete's credit -- dude has been posting with a more humble tone lately. I think his comments in this thread are a far cry from some of the berating, condescending, know-it-all iconoclastic blather we've come to expect from "Dr. Piton."
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 14, 2005 - 11:53am PT
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Nature as we’ve been following this informative thread and its discourse I have to say that you deserve kudos for keeping it going nicely with your civil manner. I hope your next wall will be as enjoyable as this thread on “haul bag tricks” has been.
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Carl
Trad climber
West Bountiful, Utah
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Feb 16, 2005 - 12:47am PT
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Nature - I happen to know Rocke Thompson the inventor and manufacture of the Swivel for Petzl. I called him today, he was quite surprised that the "Haul Bag Tricks" threads had discussed which end of the Swivel is up or down. He simply stated that the swivel is designed for one end to have a single biner and the other end could have multiple biners. Yellow end up is usually for multiple rope attachment during a rescue and just the opposite is true if you would like to have multiple attachments for your haul system. Swivel is equally safe and strong.
As always climb safely.
Carl ...
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 16, 2005 - 02:44am PT
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i guess that solves that mystery ..
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2005 - 10:32am PT
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Carl - Thanks for that info. If I'm telling the canadian assassin his swivel is upside down it's only because he started it (saying mine was). Somewhere in a post above I acknowledge that it probably doesn't matter which direction it is oriented. And oh... did you ask him about multiple rope attachements in the yellow end? :-)
That said is anyone willing to bet me beer that the next time I post a photo with the yellow end down the canadian assassin still sprays that I have it upside down? Nope? Nobody willing to take that bet? Didn't think so....
Mike. - how is the nylon/perlon interface any different than the one you tie in to your harness with? I thought about that a bit but came to the conclusion it isn't different enough to worry about it so I won't.
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