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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Jun 15, 2012 - 02:26am PT
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Without doubt the east coast indian tribes were the bloodiest. The idea of developing a peaceful society never caught on during the thousands of years they happily spent feuding (ie murdering) each other until the Euro's arrived
A few gory details
http://www.garykelleywriter.com/end_notes.htm
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 15, 2012 - 02:48am PT
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I was recently trying to understand how a woman raised as a Native American had female European DNA, typical of Hispanic and Mediterranean Jewish ancestry.
That led me to read the Wiki article on "The History of Florida" where I learned that English colonists from the Carolinas allied with Cherokee and Choctaw, routinely raided Florida to acquire both Native American and Spanish slaves.
Not surprisingly most of the women who were thought to be of Native Ancestry by culture and identity who turned up with European ancestry were Cherokee.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 02:50am PT
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Give me an f*ing break... the euros exterminated the aboriginal inhabitants for their own gain. The US government broke every treaty with the Native Americans. Every one. Get a clue. It doesn't matter which euro country they came from. It is shameful for all of them.
What matters is what we do going forward. Trying to justify genocide after the fact based on inter tribal conflict is the weakest form of rationalization ever.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Jun 15, 2012 - 02:56am PT
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As a historian, I would say both. We so called Americans wiped out more tribes in California then the rest of the states during the gold rush. Gold makes us blood thirsty idiots. Russians, English, Spanish, Chinese etc... They would kill anything for wealth.
AFS
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juar
Sport climber
socal
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Jun 15, 2012 - 03:07am PT
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funny how western afficianados
will parade a list of incident of violence
as an excuse for him us out culture to do worse
supposedly were her offing culture and advancement to savages
while were robbing and stealing
know the story of what the pilgrams who would have died without natives saving their lives did?
didnt just massacre them
cut their chiefs head off and brought it home and stuck it on a pike outside their encampment
and left it their over over a year
the man who saved them months previous
f*#king animals
this make it into your history books?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 15, 2012 - 03:26am PT
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I'd bet on Insurance companies..
They kill millions
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Jun 15, 2012 - 07:30am PT
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Juar,
To answer your question, yes. Stannard's book documents many of the atrocities like the spiking.
Just as a curiosity, what source provides the "supposed" information for you?
I don't think anyone posting here is flaunting Western Culture to be more just than another. The question is posed as more of a statement about the nature of mankind and the atrocities committed by members of the human race as opposed to being a question about the superiority of one nationality over another (chime in, OP). At least that is my take on it.
The "history books" present the facts of what happened, based on fact as documented by those that participated or witnessed the events. They aren't written as statements of political philosophy like Mien Kampf or The Communist Manifesto; but rather a chronicle of what went down in this part of the world at a given time. Specifically the 15th - 17th centuries.
It is a friendly debate over how people understand what they have learned or interpreted what they have read. I guess if someone is presenting facts based on their witnessing the events that would fit in also.
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juar
Sport climber
socal
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Jun 15, 2012 - 10:12am PT
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whats all the more curious is how
when these incidents come to light
their hardly ever refuted
the facts stand, and the authors are berated simply due to their choice of adjectives to describe them
some examples of this are much more subtle than others,
take this one for example
"The Spanish were able to graft their system of governance onto a society accustomed to conquerors. This can be framed as a transfer of power and helps explain the extent of indigene slavery in Spanish colonies. "
hard to drag out the phrase "they deserved it" any longer than that, but here it is today, thrown in our faces.
"nothing to see here, what are you looking at?!?!?"
how many seperate and distinct cultures did these spanish annihilate in the western hemisphere?
there are man good factual points in the referenced authors work,
but noticed the first order of business is to state " hey look, they were all brown people, so what the f*#k?"
subtle
dirty white academia on its game
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 15, 2012 - 10:32am PT
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Wow, going way back to the early part of this thread here.
Most of the killing happened by disease.
Yes Clint, there is a lot of truth to that, and it was a good book.
But that sentence also sugarcoats a LOT of evil, and demonizes the most "innocent" of all the killers.
Disease played a big part to be sure, but disease doesn't have the ability to distinguish right from wrong. The English and the Spanish were equally evil in this regard.
But here's the real bullshit:
The proof is in the result.
Look at the condition of former English holdings versus Spanish ones.
Where would you choose to live?
Indeed. The places that the Nazis conquered and controlled all turned out pretty well too. I guess they were on the right track eh TGT?
Besides, everybody knows that the Muslims are the worst, right Fatty?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jun 15, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
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Are talking about outright murder or disease or mindset?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
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How about "Californians"? In California there was a $ scalp bounty placed on Indians in the 1850's thru almost the turn of the century, and so some people made a fortune killing Indians and bringing in their scalps. Not to many Indians left in California.
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juar
Sport climber
socal
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
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they leave out john sutters taste for native children as well
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
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To get a good idea of how England and Spain treated theme selves and the natives of other parts of the world read the compiled writings of
Richard Hakluyt.
These are 1st hand reports of the explorations going on in the 1500 and 1600s and gives a vivid account of how these people treated each other.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
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While all that was going on here, what was happening around the rest of the world?
If you answered "the same thing", go to the head of the class.
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Sredni Vashtar
Social climber
LA CA via UK
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
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British conquered most of the world and by and large the original inhabitants still exist and werent subjected to a genocide. many native peoples of the US fled to Canada (Sitting bull for example) as he knew the British there allowed the native peoples protection under law. the British empire was based on commerce not relgious conversion or annihilation. In the context of empires it was relatively benign, but in a modern context its aborrhent. an dont forget it was the British the forcibly ended the Trans-Atlantic slave trade to the Americas.
god save the queen ;)
SV
Disclaimer, i am British and American
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
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The australian aboriginals might disagree about the intents of the british. 50% died of smallbox in the Sidney area, as well as ultimately all being pushed onto reservations or otherwise worthless land.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Jun 15, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
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The Spanglish. They are responsible for all the First World's Problems.
But seriously, folks--
Some good reads are Gary Jennings' series on the Aztecs, beginning with the 1980 Aztec, and Aztec Autumn from 1997. (There are three more in this series, none of which I have read as yet.) As are most Jennings novels, they are Grade VI in length. I always take a good novel over the drier things like Diamond's. Tried it, laid it down. With a novel and a computer, it's easy enough to tell how much truth is stretched by the novelist. Purism is for Puritans, who happened to be of English stock.
Spanish Inquisition vs. the Star Chamber of King Charles I.
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harihari
Trad climber
Squampton
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Jun 15, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
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Dingus--
Regarding the Colombian women. I too was frankly astonished when I got to Bogota, and my brain basically fell out when I got to Medellin. Shakira is run-of-the-mill for a paisa. (Any guy who is single, and wants to have a great time (and not just cos of the ladies), go to Colombia...friendly people and good cragging there too). However, I think the beauty questions has a totally different answer.
Colombia is one of the places where the Spanish were especially savage (and their latifundista descendents even more so, right until now). It was also a place which had significant immigration from Sephardic jews (who did not generally marry outside their faith). The result was that the country is VERY (genetically) European. So us wealthy white guys dig their women. In Bolivia and Mexico, by contrast, a majority are descended from Natives, and these facial/body types are way diff than European (generally but not always). I didn't find the Mexican or Bolivian women particularly attractive.
So basically it was the LACK of interbreeding in Colombia that gives it its very European-looking people.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Jun 15, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
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Aztec kicked ass. The sex was outlandish and very fictionalized, as was the portrayal of the priest class, but as far as the depictions of pre-European Mexico, it was really well done. Haven't read Aztec autumn. The portrayal of the downfall of the Aztecs by the Spanish was pretty depressing. It's too bad they didn't treat the Spanish the same way the Comanche did...drive them out of the llano for 200 years or so.
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