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John Moosie
climber
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Sep 10, 2007 - 06:42pm PT
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Twisted, Send me a hundred buck and I will put you on the list.
For 5,000 dollars I can sign your entire family up in the deluxe no baptsim protection plan. The deluxe plan guarantees that no one will baptise any of your dead relatives. If anyone does baptise your relatives, I have an unbaptising ceremony which is guaranteed to work. Its complicated and involves plucking the hairs off the balls of a chicken, but then nothing is too good for those who sign up for my deluxe 5,000 dollar no baptism offering.
Special discounts for small families.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 10, 2007 - 06:53pm PT
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Hang in there Jennie. You don't come across as condescending. You come across as an honest real person.
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Donny... the OHHH!- Riginal
Sport climber
one very hot cathode....
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Sep 10, 2007 - 07:00pm PT
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More importantly Jennie....when you post, that fact that you don't spell your name with a "y" always makes me think of this:
So you're already tops in my (non-denominational) book.
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Donny... the OHHH!- Riginal
Sport climber
Autobahn 3, Wurzburg.
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Sep 10, 2007 - 07:18pm PT
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What's an MOT? Madonna is usually too dopey to see much of anything?
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fowweezer
Trad climber
Pleasant Grove, UT
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Sep 10, 2007 - 07:52pm PT
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I always get a kick out of the way Mormon threads roll along on all message boards, Supertopo included. Some people make inciteful, reasonable posts based on personal experience or actual knowledge. Others make attacks based on very limited personal experience, and others poke fun at religion in general.
I'm personally inclined to agree with the last group. A few points, directed at individuals.
Moof: I understand the anger. I was raised LDS and am not anymore. I date a formerly Catholic girl, but for the most part we don't exercise any religion in our household. I would be offended if someone attempted to baptize her without her consent. However, I also am well aware of the fact that in Mormon theology, individuals that are baptized for the dead are then given the option of accepting "the gospel" in the afterlife. So your relatives will still have the option, as will my girlfriend (if someone baptizes her after she passes). Me, on the other hand, I'll be burning in hell.
Ron: I honestly respect you and have enjoyed climbing your routes in Snow Canyon and elsewhere. But some of your points are a bit too far-fetched. I enjoy reading about history, and I don't like the mormon church either. I'm a gentile living in Utah and about half of my family is comprised of "strong" LDS church members. On the other hand, your point about Mormons vandalizing your house is taken a bit too far when you assert that Muslims are better because no Muslims have ever vandalized your house. Guess what Ron, you live in a Mormon state. You live in a small town in a Mormon state. You live in a backwater, small town in a Mormon state. How many Muslims live there? Is it any wonder that if/when your house gets vandalized, it is by mormon people and not muslims? I'm not shocked.
Although I do feel for you, since I recieve disapproving looks from the Home Teachers when they ask for fast offering money and me and my girlfriend are around, you sometimes stretch it a bit far. Your angst towards the Mormons might be better directed at just about any organized religion. I'm fairly confident that I could find examples of violence perpetrated in the name of religion by just about any religion out there. Mormons, Muslims, Catholics, all brands of other Christians, even Jews. So while I get what you're saying and I sympathize, Mormons aren't all evil and most aren't evil at all. I know some pretty nice ones.
Krakauer's book was interesting in that respect---it was mostly a point about how fanaticism is bad regardless of your beliefs (spiritual/religious or philosophical or whatever). What do they call it these days with regard to Muslims? Radicalization? Yeah, radicals are dangerous. No kidding.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2007 - 08:18pm PT
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Fowweezer, like Jimmy Valentine said, "That's where the money is." (Actually an apochryphal tale) but just because they are the predominant culture doesn't excuse xenophobic abuse and unless YOU are ready to foot the bill then you'll just have to allow that I'll speak out.
Perhaps a thorn in the side of a few, but it gives me a luxury that all the world's wealth couldn't buy.
While not as beautiful as a desert sunset I still like what I see in the mirror.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2007 - 08:27pm PT
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Interesting report on KSL television.
Apparently the relatives of the victims object to the LDS Church owning the ground where their forebears are burried.
Seems reasonable.
Another part of the report had an indian who seemed to admit that a few were involved, but hoped it wouldn't be used to "dehumanize" indians.
Is KSL owned by the LDS Church?
If so that would speak to their fair reporting.
(Shouldn't have used the word "forebears" near Ouch I fear,...)
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 10, 2007 - 09:08pm PT
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Did I hear four bears?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 10, 2007 - 09:55pm PT
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"There is a Christian doctrine that states one must be baptized to gain entry into heaven. Mormons do practice proxy baptisms for the benefit of the deceased who were never baptized while in the flesh. Central to that doctrine is the concept that God accepts proxy baptisms by the living for the dead (who now exist only as a spiritual entity). To be valid the baptism must be accepted by the deceased who retain their free will in the spiritual realm.
(Also, I should mention that dead bodies are NEVER baptized. Some have misunderstood this to mean the immersion of dead bodies. Only proxy baptisms are performed on behalf of the deceased)
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He can't give permission, et al, directly to those living in the flesh because of the obvious "veil" which separates this existence from his own. But spiritual personages, as individuals exist after death, retain free will and can choose to accept or reject Christ, which in essence is what baptism is about. Mormon doctrine varies from traditional Christian doctrine in that an individual can choose to accept and follow Christ after his earthly sojourn in life, and during his existence in the hereafter. The validity of such baptisms are dependant upon the choice of the spiritual "person" in the hereafter, to accept or reject its implications in accepting Christ. "
SIFMOV - sufficiently indistinquishable from most other voodoo.
I'm always amazed people can say stuff like this with a straight face, even if they are just conveying the "facts" of a doctrine.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 10, 2007 - 10:34pm PT
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KSL is owned by the church, but none-the-less, I'd say they are more balanced than Faux news.
Jennie, I'd have to disagree that the LDS church does enough about the fundamentalist splinter groups. Yes, they officially denounce the practice. And the AG Shurtleff has pursued a few prosecutions. But even setting aside the fact that polygamy itself is illegal (as I don't know that I care what consenting adults do between themselves), there is welfare fraud going on, and abuse of children. And aside from the few prosecutions in the most obvious cases, very little is done. Given how much power the LDS church has in influencing other parts of state policy (liquour laws for instance), it's difficult for me to believe that more could not be done if Hinckley were to have a relevation that polygamy needed to be stopped and that it was a good Mormon's duty to stop it.
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 10, 2007 - 10:39pm PT
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lol at Speedy Ronzalez.
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John Moosie
climber
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Sep 10, 2007 - 10:47pm PT
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good points Steve.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 11, 2007 - 09:03am PT
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"Jennie, I'd have to disagree that the LDS church does enough about the fundamentalist splinter groups. Yes, they officially denounce the practice. ...... it's difficult for me to believe that more could not be done if Hinckley were to have a relevation that polygamy needed to be stopped and that it was a good Mormon's duty to stop it."
Stevep,
What specifically do you want the LDS church to do about these splinter groups?
Remember, it's church not state. It has no militia, army, police force or any civil power to enforce the law. The revelation to cease polygamy came over a century ago, and any LDS members found to be practicing polygamy are promptly excommunicated. Excommunication is the most severe penalty the church can impose. It cannot incarcerate or execute criminals any more than the Catholic church can temporally punish New York mafioso.
How do you know the church isn't verbally condeming splinter groups strongly enough? Do you attend Mormon church services? Or is your information from newspapers and Mr Krakauer's book?
The state of Utah is not a theocracy. In SLC and Ogden the Mormon population runs about 50% of the total, more in rural areas. Enforcing the law is the domain of civil authorities not the church. And the illicit activities of these groups go well beyond polygamy among consenting adults. Some have been inicted for severe child abuse, robbery, burglary, welfare fraud, forcing underage women into marriages agaist their will and even murder. Civil authorities vigorously persue the perpetrators but the church can do little more than notify law enforcement when crimes come to their knowledge and/or admonish members against evil.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 11, 2007 - 09:24am PT
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"SIFMOV - sufficiently indistinquishable from most other voodoo."
"I'm always amazed people can say stuff like this with a straight face, even if they are just conveying the "facts" of a doctrine."
Healyje,
No apologies. When Im asked an honest question about LDS doctrine, I feel compelled to give an honest answer.
I'm sorry you find such doctrine so bitter. Perhaps a cup of Jim Jones' New World Kool Aid would taste sweeter to you. If not, I hope your own personal enlightenment burns brightly enough and your wisdom is so wonderously developed that you can afford to continue in looking down on the sincere beliefs of others and refer to them as "other voodoo".
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 11, 2007 - 09:53am PT
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Jennie,
I don't think I implied that the church has an army or the power to enforce the law. And yes the LDS population is less than 50% in SLC.
But the church has a tremendous amount of power in Utah politics. More than any religion does in any other US state. It's pretty difficult for me to believe that given the influence they have over politicians in other matters, they couldn't do more on this one. Wouldn't be too hard to organize a boycott of businesses owned by the Kingstons. Don't need police to do that.
And no, I don't go to the ward, and what is said in private doesn't really matter to my point. What is said and done in public is what is lacking.
Please don't take this as a generalized attack on LDS people. Many are my friends. But I do feel like this place borders on a theocracy some times.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 11, 2007 - 10:15am PT
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Stevep,
I suppose I understand your position more clearly than I did. But the church HAS condemned these splinter groups in the past and will in the future. The church doesn't feel it's necessary to restate their agenda fifteen times a day as political parties and candidates do. While individual Mormons could probably do more to aid law enforcement and dimish the power of the offending parties, I still disagree that the church body has been lacking in outrage over the activities of these splinter sects.
Thanks for the comments.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Sep 11, 2007 - 10:19am PT
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i think the control the church has over the way the vast majority of people here vote is power enough, should they choose to suggest a stand and action be taken on any issue...see also air quality, teen pregnancy and sex education...
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 11, 2007 - 10:32am PT
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PMB,
The LDS church has made statements in the past concerning out of wedlock pregnancy, sex education and taking care of the Earth. But, in our incarnation, the church has only an advisory position. Once beyond church policy statement, such things must be put into practice by individual action or if need be, democratic law.
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Quaken
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Sep 11, 2007 - 10:42am PT
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Having little use for underware myself, I'd still be interested to see what the sacred skivvys really look like if someone could post a picture. Can they be ordered in Powdered Blue (my fav!) Is there a catalog?
FYI - I do NOT believe joe smith was a prophet of God and I would never make my kids chant it and spit it out in front of a bunch of other people like a trained puppy.
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