Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
Woody's comments on Europe and Canada are based, like most of his comments, on complete and utter ignorance.
No, not exactly.
As is the case with many ST posters, some of what he says is either reasonable or an honest expression of opinion. The problem is that many of you don't stop at the limit of what you know, but project your beliefs/politics/religions/ideologies onto what you don't know. Which is what he has done with his Canada/Europe comment.
It is very easy to point to the ignorance and truth-stetching -- or outright lies -- of the other side in whatever subject one is arguing about. But is is also easy to ignore the truth-stretching, lies, and total bullshit spouted by those on one's own side. Or, worse, by oneself.
ST is a wonderful campfire. We who sit around it in the shared magic of climbing are free to discuss and debate whatever interests us, without worrying whether the Rangers are going to bust our good time and send us off to our tents. But our debates too often become little more than partisan shouting matches, and we would all be better off if we thought more carefully about what we were saying, and listened with more open minds to what others were saying.
D
|
|
Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
|
|
k-man - I've been told about these things from a guy at work, first, then from a friend from facebook.
Yes, it is scary the think that it does not matter who we put in office... the money holders (read money makers) have their thumb on all of us and are slowly, so as not to be noticed at all, tightening the screws!
Not sure how to combat the men behind the curtain... What? Stop buying things that we don't need with money we don't have.... All of us? Really?
It might be just that simple
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
Zeitgeist gets shredded.
http://www.webcitation.org/5XbaeIRZA
Zeitgeist, The Movie is a film that was released on Google Video in the spring of 2007 and was created by Peter Joseph. Essentially the video covers three areas of Interest. Part I, entitled "The Greatest Story Ever Told" evaluates Christian beliefs and asserts that it was all taken from pre-existing myths, primarily Egyptian mythology. In Part II, entitled "All The World's a Stage" it goes on to talk about how the US Government knew about the attacks on September 11th, 2001 before hand and that it was a large conspiracy and cover up -- essentially an it was an inside job. Lastly we are told in Part III, entitled "Don't Mind The Men Behind The Curtain", that powerful bankers and world leaders are conspiring for world domination and consolidation of power.
This video has recently (early 2008 now) spread through the Internet like wild fire. I cannot go to a forum on the Internet without someone mentioning how this is the "truth" and it has "opened [their] eyes". Nearly always, they also claim that they know these things are true because of their "own research". The interesting part of all this is, you rarely see any engineers, scientists, or anyone else making such claims.
I decided to sit down and watch the film, I honestly began watching it thinking it may have some interesting information. When it was all over, I realized that many things were completely wrong, misquoted, or had already been disproven by many other people long ago. The problem was that when I tried to Google more information about it, nobody had made a complete guide discussing all the inaccuracies of the film. So, here I am. If you don't want to read the whole site, you can read my conclusion page for a general overview.
The movie rarely cites sources, and when it does, it fails to provide page numbers, dates, and other information. Sourced information listed on their web site is primarily from books which are sometimes hard to obtain -- trust me, I tried -- making fact checking near impossible. So, in my work, I am going to source all my claims and exactly where I find them. If it is in a book, I will do my best to find an online version of the book, and if I cannot, I will link to where the book can be purchased. For the most part, however, I wanted to use web sites and online information so it is easier for everyone to read -- I have received several complaints about this, somehow a book is more authoritive than a web site, I'm not sure where that logic comes from considering the crazy books that are in circulation these days.
I am not naïve, and you should not be either; the information here will be considered controversial to many of those who see Zeitgeist, the movie as the truth. That said, do not be surprised if they refuse to believe anything written in these pages. I personally have tried to show people before, generally they reply "you shouldn't believe everything you read on the Internet" (ironic, isn't it?) and/or that they "just have an open mind". Note that these are not answers to the skeptics questions, these are just ways to avoid facing something that disproves what they believe. Readers have also reported that conspiracy theorists who read my site, if they have one problem with anything on it, they automatically throw out the whole thing without reading the site in its entirety.
One of the biggest rebuttals I receive is that the film "isn't mean to be true, just to open your mind to other possibilities." The problem with this logic is that there are better ways to show someone alternative view points other than blatantly lying to them. Most importantly, most people who do like this movie, do believe it, they don't see it as just some metaphorical mind-opening experience. My question to these people who refute me this way is this: if I am wrong and/or lying on my web site, then why aren't I also just trying to open peoples minds? Why am I the liar? Is it because I don't make outrageous and impossible claims about the world and believe you to be an idiot?
They say I have "missed the entire point of the film", but have I really? If the film is lying to me about everything, then what is the point? It can't be to open my mind, that really doesn't make sense, because if that is the case, all liars are really just trying to open your mind. The film's web site makes a big deal that if you find anything incorrect, then it wasn't supposed to be correct -- however, I imagine if you do believe something in it, they'll tell you that it's true as well.
Good luck to anyone using this information to try to talk sense into someone.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
These people are freaks, marginalize them.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2008 - 02:00am PT
|
Not sure how to combat the men behind the curtain... What? Stop buying things that we don't need with money we don't have.... All of us? Really?
It might be just that simple
Dang! Sounds like a good way to live, less stress on the systems in general...
|
|
WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
|
|
I always enjoy hitting a nerve.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2008 - 06:39pm PT
|
So, folks who don't believe in conspiracies, do y'all believe the Warren Report? That Crazy Silver Bullet thing?? Ed, a physicist, you really think that the silver bullet/single shooter theory is possible?
"... the bullet traversed 15 layers of clothing, 7 layers of skin, and approximately 15 inches of tissue, struck a tie knot, removed 4 inches of rib and shattered a radius bone."
[Click to see a picture of the bullet that did all this damage!]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_bullet_theory
Or the 9-11 Commission Report. You believe that too?? When so much has been written, by committee members, saying how much of it is a sham. You believe that too?
Not that I know anything about how 9/11 could be an inside job, but there's just so many fishy things about the series of events.
One of my favorites: Finding a hijacker's passport in the Trade Tower wreckage shortly after his plane exploded in flames...Sure, that's possible!
|
|
_MUDD_
climber
Schwagstaff
|
|
Granite,
You almost had me going with your "Zietgiest gets shredded" tag.
That guys site was garbage. His conclusions page used such rousing arguements as, "Part I was nearly all lies" "It was complete garbage" so much for a balanced inquiry into the accuracy of the movie.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
"You almost had me going with your "Zietgiest gets shredded" tag.
That guys site was garbage. His conclusions page used such rousing arguements as, "Part I was nearly all lies" "It was complete garbage" so much for a balanced inquiry into the accuracy of the movie."
The conclusions page contains just that, conclusions. They are based on detailed analysis. So if you want to determine whether his conclusions are correct or now you should look at the analysis:
Part I: http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/
Part II: http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-two/
Part III: http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-three/
These are very heavily footnoted so you can check the sources yourself.
I didn't read it all but from what I read some of Part III and it looks mostly spot on, although the tone can be flippant at times.
From Part III.
No Laws For Income Tax
And fourth, even with the fraudulent government claim as to the legality of the income tax, there is literally no statute, no law in existence, that requires you to pay this tax... period.
Oh really, maybe we should ask someone at the IRS?
"I really expended that, 'of course there's a law that you can point to, in the law book and code that requires to file a tax return. Of course, there is.' I was at that point where I couldn't find the statute that clearly made a person liable, at least not me, and most people I know, and I had no choice in my mind except to resign."
Joe Turner, Former IRS Agent
Perhaps get a second opinion?
"Based on the research that I did throughout the year 2000 and that I'm still doing, I have not found that law. I've asked Congress, a lot of people, we've asked the IRS Commissioner's helpers, they can't answer, because if they answer, the American people are gonna know that this whole thing is a fraud."
Sherry Jackson, Former IRS Agent
Interesting. Well, while these two were yakking, I managed to find the exact law in the IRS code! Can you believe it? It was just right there the whole time[56][57]. 26 USC Section 1[58] says it is for every individual, Sections 61[59] and 64[60] essentially show that all income from whatever source is derived, Sections 6012[61] and Sections 6151[62] require you to file a tax return, and Section 6072[63] requires you to file an income tax return.
I'm not sure how it was so complicated for them to find it. Incase anyone is wondering, Title 26, the Internal Revenue Code, is law, just as Title 23 is for highways and Title 35 is for patents[64].
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
Ed, a physicist, you really think that the silver bullet/single shooter theory is possible?
huh? It's possible, and consistent with the scenario. There are other possibilities too. Put all together, I don't have any difficulty believing the Warren Commission account of the assassination of Kennedy.
9/11 I have slightly more information about, I'm not worried about a cover up... or the possibility that things are radically different from the account we know about.
Ever been to Dealey Plaza? I have a number of times, it is a lot smaller place than I imagined it, those memories are seared into my brain, and being there had an unusually emotional effect on me.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
A couple of years ago the single bullet shot was replicated, filmed and televized.
They had a panic after the shot when they couldn't find the bullet. It droped out unexpectedly in almost a duplication of the actual event at the hospital.
Damage to both ballistic gelatin dummies was also consistent with history.
What we have at work with the tin hat brigade here is the "Elvis" factor. According to some surveys 10% believe he's alive and in hiding.
|
|
_MUDD_
climber
Schwagstaff
|
|
This is detailed analysis?
I honestly believe the "stupefying downward spiral" is related to too much media saturation, and the reason is very simple. Media is entertaining, media sells, school is boring, and that's it. Nothing big behind it other than that.
|
|
WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
|
|
I know Elvis is alive; Locker rents him an alcove in his cave in Lucern Valley.
|
|
_MUDD_
climber
Schwagstaff
|
|
Jesus,
I just read the entire Part III debunking. His entire arguement consists of opinion and blanket statements. I didnt see more than one or two facts and zero sources in the whole analysis. Just because he took the time to respond with his opinion to every second of movie footage doesn't make him a reputable source.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
"This is detailed analysis?"
The guy who wrote it clearly had too much time on his hands... it goes on and on. How much more detail did you want?
It may not be as scholarly as I would like, but it is much more scholarly than the film.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2008 - 09:00pm PT
|
OK, I'll buy the fact that you believe the Silver Bullet, intact has it is, went through 17 layers of tissue and into two bones. Personally, I have a harder time believing the idea.
Also, any reference to the replication of the Silver Bullet scenario? I could not find any through Google.
As for the passport deal, it's just one of many, many things that happened that day that you can say "Sure, this could possibly happen." But the odds of all of them happening at once, it's very difficult for me to swallow.
Like an Indiana Jones movie, you have to suspend your beliefs for a brief period of time to buy the official account of these events.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
"I just read the entire Part III debunking. His entire arguement consists of opinion and blanket statements. I didnt see more than one or two facts and zero sources in the whole analysis."
Then you weren't reading it very well. There are lots of opinion but there are also lots of facts, backed up with footnoted authority. For example the relevant provisions of the U.S Internal Code.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
The passport and the single bullet are possible, even plausible. But we weren't there and can't verify it ourselves.
The kooky claim in Zeitgeist that there is no provision requiring us to pay taxes--that is something you can disprove yourself. Just go to the nearest law library and look at the U.S. Code, you can even bring your tinfoil hat with you right into the library.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!