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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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C.S. Lewis is pretty interesting himself. I just read his 'Signature Series' which is a 3 books in one, Mere Christianity, The Screwtape Letters, and I forget the last one, I haven't finished it yet. He's definately got an differrent take on Christianity, a different, more common sensical way of describing it. Not too preachy.
I'd highly recommend it.
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John Moosie
climber
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Yes, C.S Lewis helped open up my mind. The next great teacher is Kim Michaels. "The Christ is born in You".
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John Moosie
climber
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Hey Locker,
"Personally I just do what I can to keep myself "in check" and let others do the same... "
This can work for awhile and it is definitely important that you start by taking care of yourself first. But you have to wonder if this is the same attitude that is causing us to close our mental hospitals and force the mentally ill out onto the streets. This is part of why we have so many homeless. We just say, " well, you need to take care of yourself, we are going to take care of ourselves and you have to do the same" and then we boot them out the door.
And please understand that I know that many of these hospitals were dispicable places. I just think that we should have fixed them instead of closing them. I have a friend whose brother was in Camarillo state mental hospital. I went with him regularly to visit his brother. When we started reducing the program there they kicked him out and forced my friend to try and take care of his brother even though his brother was borderline psychotic. Eventually my friend had to kick his brother out because he was a serious threat to my friends family.
He now bounces back and forth between functioning and having housing to not functioning and living on the streets. I wish that as a society we would offer better care. I don't think that this should be only the burden of the family. My friend doesn't own a home because most of his money goes into helping his brother.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Are the books you mention by C.S. Lewis fictional also?
I've heard of the author, but haven't read any of them. For some reason I think of Chronicles of Narnia.
Genesis always was a very interesting piece of writing for me. In no way can it be meant to be taken literally - which makes it fiction by design - and yet it holds significant precursors to the Christian way of doing things.
Notice that Adam and Eve were evicted from this mythological place - the garden of Eden - because they ate of the Tree of Knowledge. This is a consistent theme in Christianity: that of a psychological war between Knowledge and Faith. The two are opposing factions, and only exist purely when entirely in absence of the other. In the vast majority of cases, leaders of Christian faith fight Knowledge in all it's forms. Common examples include editing/censoring actual books in the Bible (including actually changing sex of certain characters, and the nature of their relationships) as well as other books, and limiting sex ed, evolution science, etc.
I don't think, John, that you can have varying levels of free will or awareness. Either you have it, or you don't.
Nor do I think much of the concept of Original Sin. (It kind of has to be one or the other; Free Will OR Original sin; both are not equally possible.)
Nor do such concepts as second death or Place of Conciousness or Create with Permanence or Live millions of years really hold any meaning for me other than fictional, though imaginative concepts - that are interesting, for sure (good bullsh#t, as a friend used to say) but ultimately, as unproveable and counter-intuitive as God himself.
I don't think that other lives or worlds than this one exist - for me to give this life to service, hoping for a reward in the next when there's no proof there even IS a next just seems ... silly.
Further, I feel that to give rational sanction to fictional concepts as REAL ones invalidates reality itself. And again, reality is the final measuring stick by which all debates are finally judged.
The Bolted Belay of Truth.
(I just like saying that.)
-Aaron
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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C.S. Lewis' writings are both. Chronicles of Narnia is fictional but alot of religious writings are kinda autobiographical. They're kinda his take on religion, the way he sees things. He used to be an atheist too, for whatever that's worth.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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In a way it really makes sense.
I've read fiction to try to understand Christianity, also.
-A
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L
climber
NoName City and It Don't Look Pretty
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PS: I don't understand people that believe in God but DON'T believe in Hell. After all, the two concepts come from the exact same source! wtf?!? How can you just pick and choose the ideas that you like?
Aaron, it's only the same source if you're talking about the Judeo/Christian Bible.
Many other sources deal with God as something other than a bearded old white guy sitting on a cloud with a list of your every sin and good deed, vindictive and jealous as only mankind can be, dishing out judgments for heaven or hell like the unconditionally loving, omnipotent, omnipresent being He ain't.
You've heard the old joke: God created mankind, then we turned around and returned the favor.
If only it were only a joke.
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L
climber
NoName City and It Don't Look Pretty
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Wowza! You're quick!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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-that would be the bible? NTTAWWT! (re"I've read fiction to try to understand Christianity, also.
-A" - damn these slow, fumbling fingers)
"Notice that Adam and Eve were evicted from this mythological place - the garden of Eden - because they ate of the Tree of Knowledge."
-That's one interpretation of that myth (not a perjorative term, means it was written that way for a specific reason of rhetoric). I prefer the one promoted by Joe Campbell, among others, that it was an invitation to get out of their comfort zone and learn what is really out there.
Treebeard, (CS Lewis), had a lot of interesting things to say from perspectives that varied/grew, over time.
and, oh yeah, Ed nailed it!
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L
climber
NoName City and It Don't Look Pretty
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How dare you climb!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Really, some of us have work on Mondays. Maybe a little climbing, too.
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L
climber
NoName City and It Don't Look Pretty
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Yep, pulling on plastic tonight...just not the same.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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IMO, being a white american of european descent, and in the context of our collective history, which of course includes such less-than-proud episodes as colonialism and slavery:
i honestly wonder how any white american can fully and dogmatically embrace the concept of one and only one God, and believe that their God chose to ignore all the european and non-european civilizations that had come and gone before the time of Jesus Christ.
do you not recognize a pattern?
do you not see how religion can be (and is regularly) used as a mechanism of social control?
the fact is:
God is whomever your mamma said God is.
further, many of you believe in God simply because it allows you to put yourself, your family, and your social group into a special category, where you are worthy of *something* and others are not (note: if everyone were equally worthy, than how would you be special?)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Matt, with all due respect, my brother, that's gotta be the biggest lump of sh#t you've laid in a forum. Have you done any reading about Judeo/Christian thought, or are your statements just your impressions of certain religious people?
Edit: I'm going home, I'll explain my sentiments tomorrow...
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John Moosie
climber
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hahahaha.....Matt, Brother, you definitely did a stereotype there. If my Mama knew exactly what I believe today she would think I was going to hell for an eternity. Oh man. I no longer talk about God to my parents. I can't talk about my beliefs about God to anyone in my family. They get very frightened which is a common reaction among modern Christians. Some of the problem is that they are raised to think inside a box and I destroyed that box and some of the problem is that I have not risen high enough in consciousness to help them see that I am making progress. I still wallow in some of my hells and so I don't appear to know much yet. Time will tell if I have learned anything in my search for Truth.
John
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Matt,
You nailed it!
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frodolf
climber
Sweden
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If we leave the swamp of Descartes for a few minutes, we can all agree that we live in one world. Everything in the universe is the same for all people. I'm of course not talking of subjective stuff like "which book is the best" or "is spaghetti more tasty than macaronies", I'm talking of objective stuff only. For example, we can all agree that the Earth can not be 6000 years old AND 4,5 billion years old AT THE SAME TIME. Hydrogen and oxygen make up an explosive combo, no matter what your beliefs are or what you feel like. If you're aid climbing and the little shitty piece you're on blows, then you WILL fall downwards, and not to the left, even IF you firmly believe that you will.
This is the Bolted Belay of Truth, as Tahoe tryed to say, I believe. The world is the same for all people, it's our comprehension of the world that change. 1+1=2 no matter how poor you are.
The same goes for religion, of course. There can't, for example, exist two omnipotent Gods. Christians and muslims can't both be right. We can't ALL go to hell, eh? As a matter of fact, there can't exist two different religions in the world that are both true. Not even two different brands of the SAME religion can both ne true. And as for now, I've heard there exists over 33 000 different christian churches, brotherhoods, communions, and so forth. But it doesn't end there. We also have to consider every persons PERSONAL belief, and not only in which church he/she/it is present on Hang-Over Days.
By this we can conclude that the field of ontologies is not a field, but a swamp. A rotting marsh of self-deception, imagination and confusion, and this is AFTER leaving the much dreaded pool of Descartes.
I don't think we'll ever get out feet dry, I have few illusions (and I'm proud of that), but I do believe that we sometimes look at all this the wrong way. We CAN all agree that there exist only one world in which we all live, and we should be able to agree that the human race is an imaginative one.
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John Moosie
climber
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Howdy Aaron,
"Genesis always was a very interesting piece of writing for me. In no way can it be meant to be taken literally - which makes it fiction by design - and yet it holds significant precursors to the Christian way of doing things"
You make the same assumption that most Western Minds make. That is one of the primary problems with Christianity today. It trys to literally interpet writings that use allegory and symbols. Symbology and allegory are common in the Eastern thought and communication style and the Old Testament is rife with symbology. It doesn't make it useless nor fiction, in fact it helps make it timeless.
" for me to give this life to service, hoping for a reward in the next when there's no proof there even IS a next just seems ... silly. "
That ..would ...be silly if that were why I chose to serve others. The thing is, its not why I believe as I do. I believe we are made to serve each other because it serves ourselves. We are all one therefore if I help you overcome a problem then I ultimately help myself. This is why Jesus was willing to allow himself to be sacrificed on the cross. Not so that he could save us all from our sins but so that he could show that life after death is real and it behooves us to figure this out. He did it to ultimately serve himself. He came to show the way which in reality is only done by Being the Way. If I give lip service to Love, then I am not really showing the way. But if I become Love embodied, then I live it and am it and therefore become the way. We are all called to this.
It is not blind faith. I do not do what I do in hopes of a later reward. I do it because over time it is proving to work. If you could have known me just a few short years ago, then you would have seen a person nearly bed ridden. A person in near complete mental agony at the point of a complete breakdown. Please believe me when I say that I spent many years and many dollars trying medicine, therapy and just bulldogged determination to try to just be okay. It wasn't until I reconnected to a spiritual way of living that I started to show improvement. I don't follow religion. I follow the still small voice within me, our guide to a more affective way of living.
But don't follow me if I don't bare fruit. The fruit of abundance, Joy, and Peace. If you want these things, then I suggest you look beyond science and study the laws of spirit. This is not to say that I give up on science. I still love my in door plumbing, my refrigerator, my computer and many of the wonderful things that modern science has given us. I just understand that beyond physical law is spiritual law and in order to live well, I want to know what those spiritual laws are.
John
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John Moosie
climber
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Hi frodolf,
I don't think of any religion on this earth as having the whole truth. Just as I do not think that science knows all there is yet to know. But I do understand that even different religions can have the seed of truth in them if one simply looks. The concecpt of reaping what one sows is a concept found in most religions. Especially the major ones. Perhaps this is because it is an eternal truth or perhaps simply because most people have figured it out.
Moosie
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frodolf
climber
Sweden
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Moosie, I agree with you on that. There are some stuff in those old books that are undenyably good advices, even for an atheist like myself. I was more thinking of the mechanics, not the morale, of different religions; about the physical reality they make claims about.
I don't think that just because something is found in many different religions it should be called "eternal". If some proverb exist in many religions, that tells us about something about mankind, not the other way around.
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