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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Apr 30, 2007 - 01:49am PT
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What's a shwarn or even a swarn?
Just asking questions.
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Apr 30, 2007 - 01:54am PT
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Now you know what we think when we hear a conspiradroid saying, 'just asking questions'.
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Apr 30, 2007 - 01:58am PT
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The ones who could not computer model fires in the 60's?
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Apr 30, 2007 - 02:01am PT
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Wow, AC you think the designers computer modeled potential fires in the towers?
Now you need to provide a link.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Apr 30, 2007 - 02:02am PT
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To klimmer and other similarly inclined individuals....
Curt
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2007 - 02:56am PT
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"The astonishingly powerful and capable conspirators could not even plant one Iraqi on the suicide teams. Instead they chose 15 of our Saudi allies."
No Afghanis either. Why did we invade either country?
Somebody post a list of the highjackers so we can make fun of it. We really don't know who did this even. Those guys names aren't on the passenger manifests and the list of highjackers who the government did name, some have turned out to be still alive.
How come we don't know the simplest thing?
Peace
Karl
Funny, it's years after the Iraq invasion. We practically know for certain that there WAS a conspiracy to invade Iraq knowing they didn't really have WMDs. Even CIA director George Tenent (doesn't get much higher than this folks) has released a book stating as much. Still, no real investigation or accountability for a conspiracy crime that costs thousands of lives and hundreds of billions.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Apr 30, 2007 - 09:05am PT
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I hate to muddy up your conspiracy fantasy with facts,but here is what we are taught in the fire service.Steel starts to fail at 600 to 800 degrees F. That is why all building codes require it be wrapped with two layers of fire resistant drywall(Type X).
Pound for pound,wood performs better in a fire than steel.
The quick action thumbrule for petroleum based fuels is,the darker the color,the more heat it gives off in combustion.Kerosene burns hotter than gasoline,correct.
The towers were planned to withstand an aircraft collision,but not one of the magnitude that occured.
I'd still like one of you conspiracy nutjobs to explain to me how the Bush administration was unable to just plant some WMD in Iraq,which would require a very small number of faithful military type personal,and readily available stuff,to quell that whole issue,but instead engaged in a conspiracy to topple some buildings in New York,for no good reason?And that they were able to find the necessary number of agents to do this.
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 30, 2007 - 09:23am PT
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"The physics remain, and the dearth of answers from you Bushbots."
"(See how Mimi runs?)" AC
Unfortunately, there's no running from you AC. Here's that link again that provides scientific and common sense explanations. I know it's really hard for you to handle either concept.
http://www.debunking911.com/index.html
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 30, 2007 - 09:47am PT
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I think the most important question for WTC conspiracy theorists is:
Did you remember to take your meds this morning?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 30, 2007 - 09:51am PT
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It's the Jews. Must be the Jews that brought down that Bridge. No Jews were injured in the whole thing.
And did anyone notice there were no pirates ANYWHERE in the water in the background?
Gotta be some kind of Jew-Pirate alliance going on....
-Fear
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 30, 2007 - 10:03am PT
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:-)
To whoever mentioned Boston bridge, unless I missed a new one, the Mianus Bridge mentioned in a Boston paper reference is in Connecticut.
dirtbag, it is not a matter of remembering to take meds. It is a well known problem called "insight". Those who need to take the meds usually feel that they are well, since they do not recognize the identifiable symptoms that they would when they know that they need antibiotics. Since they feel well, they do not take the medication. In medicine, they liken the need to the need to take insulin, i.e. they must take it to remain well. Unlike failure to take insulin, however, their condition leaves them somewhat functional in many cases. This is especially true for people with delusional disorders.
For you "steel melting point types", take a short visit to a blacksmith. It will make it far more concrete for you than the abstract concept of temperature. Steel and iron are quite malleable well below their melting points. If they weren't, the cost of metal products would be enormous due to the energy that would be necessary to deal with them. (Unfortunately most people, myself included, have little experience, and therefore little intuition, with temperatures much below 0F or above 212F.)
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Apr 30, 2007 - 10:21am PT
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What do you mean, Tomcat, for no good reason?
If 9/11 hadn't happened, look at who wouldn't have benefited. Some public officials taxes are viewable to the public. Look. There are still rules in place from your founding fathers like the freedom of information act there to protect you - but these freedoms are being taken away from under your noses. Laws and rules are changing fast, without even letting the public know, and if you think everything is A-OK, look at what is just coming out now, Tenet is saying the Iraq war was a personal idea of the Administration's, admitting it had nothing to do with 9/11 etc. They knew that anarchy would rule in Iraq if the government was removed, and that Bush and Bin Laden were not allied.
So why was it done anyway? You need to step back, take a long hard look at what has happened these past 6 years to American society, and ask yourself, "if I hated Democracy, do I really think that there is a way to ruin it or even change one thing on the constitution with a group of less than 20 men?" Seriously, if real Freedom loving Americans were running things, they would have said, NO ONE can take away our rights and freedoms, that is what makes us free, a Democracy. They would have fired at least one .22 bullet or allowed the missile-defense system around the pentagon to do it's job, anything during the 4 hours of planes being off course. Just last week a jet in the middle of nowhere was escorted to the ground by jets in a normal procedure because it wasn't flying on it's path.
But were was your billions of dollars of aerospace defense when this all happened? Where were your multiple layers of defense systems and strategy already put in place to stop planes from hitting the towers? (it was addressed and put on the cover of multiple defense reports in the year before this happened) You can't tell me that terrorists somehow got away with this by themselves on visas, then their allies got away without a decent investigation that actually found out who they were and punished them. And you can't say they didn't, we know they had nothing to do with our wars now.
If you look at history and true justice, you see that this isn't how America works normally. And now that everyone is seeing that the Iraq war really was a distractor with lies told to keep Americans distracted from the truth, doesn't it make you wonder what really is going on?
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 30, 2007 - 10:37am PT
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Apr 30, 2007 - 10:50am PT
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Quenching just makes steel hard and brittle. Does little to change the temperature characteristics.
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Apr 30, 2007 - 10:59am PT
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And why won't Jones submit any of his 911 papers for peer review?
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Apr 30, 2007 - 11:09am PT
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Jones claimed: 'WTC 7 collapsed completely, onto its own footprint'
Well I think the owner of 30 West Broadway (Fiterman Hall) would be quite interested to know his building was not damaged by WTC 7 since it collapsed into its own footprint.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 30, 2007 - 11:35am PT
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Its amazing that when we stoke up our wood burning stove, and get the fire as hot as we can, and maximize the efficiency to the best of our ability, our wood stove doesn't fail and melt into a puddle. We can even get the flume red/orange hot in spots and yet it stays together with out collapse.
Yes, Blacksmith ovens/kilns do get to those temps where iron and steel are now capable of being worked and are malueable. The conditions are optimum with even blowers for oxygen - they are blast furnaces. This doesn't happen in building fires etc. You don't get optimum burning conditions even in the most perfect building fire. The jet fuel, burned off rapidly in the WTC towers left very inefficient black smoke building fires behind.
Even in the impact holes formed by the crashing jets, we have survivors at impact "ground zero" looking out the holes and waiving for help. It was not a towering inferno. Even, the firemen that reached that level on radio believed they could put down the fires, just moments before the tower exploded nearly all along one or two floors into a fire-ball like flame that circumvented the entire building and top-down /demolition and pulverization began.
Yea, right . . . pancakeing towers are capable of throwing hundreds of massive steel beams that weigh tonnes through the air in perfect parabolic projectile motion arcs. Sorry people but that is only possible from a force capable of launching them as projectiles, and that my friends comes from explosive demolition, not pancakeing floors.
The links provided up thread for watching Dr. Jones is up to date. It is the latest. You should watch all of them in the order given. They now have found even more evidence throughout the dust debri from 9-11, with the finger prints of thermite/thermate in the many small metallic micro-spheres they have been finding throughout the dust. Even the USGS in their dust debri study mentions these metallic micro-spheres. And now through electron microscope and EDS studies the fingerprints for thermite/thermate are there. And there is a lot of that dust debri to go through. Lots of evidence ladies and gentleman.
So what are you going to do with that evidence? Just bury it and pretend it doesn't exist? Well, if you are a Sheeple Bushbot you must! And isn't that what they have tried to do from day one on 9/11?
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 30, 2007 - 11:45am PT
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Klimmer, if you use one long enough, you can see or measure deformation in an andiron caused by the weight of the logs and the iron itself - don't have to get it molten. And that is the deformation under very modest weight (vertical force).
Under non-relativistic conditions, and neglecting drag, the trajectory of falling objects is parabolic as long as there is any horizontal initial velocity.
see dirtbag's post and visit a shrink. He may be able to help without meds.
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Apr 30, 2007 - 11:54am PT
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And yet no one heard the tremendous explosions that would be required to send massive steel columns hundreds of yards in perfect parabolic arcs in all directions. That is some amazing explosives Klimmer.
Klimmer, are you going to post that faked explosive video again?
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 30, 2007 - 12:09pm PT
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Not that facts will deter the CTs, but here is some research on explosive and temperature characteristics of Jet-A. 3600F for those too lazy to read.
BTW, Liguid to gas phase transitions normally increase volume about 1000 fold. Sap can be raised to boiling point nearly instantly by lightning. I have observed the effects of this, with pieces of a tree thrown as much as 100 feet from not very far up the tree.
http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/EDL/projects/JetA/facts.html
But I suppose flight 800 was just another of a whole string of conspiracies.
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