Double Rope Management

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Aya K

Trad climber

New York

Mar 27, 2007 - 12:13am PT

To be fair to reddirt - when your draws are extended, it's pretty easy for biners to flip around so they're gate side in. Happens all the time. Do I clip them that way? Nah, but there's not much you can do to prevent it unless you want to do some sort of rope-end rubber band trick. I tried a couple of helium wires to see if they would help mitigate the problem (thought maybe the narrower end would keep the biner oriented properly on the sling) but it's actually worse - the jostling of the rope makes it easier to flip the biner around.

Meanwhile - how come I never knew about this until now? Now i'm going to have to go check my biners!!

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml04/04219.html

biteme

Mountain climber

Seattle, WA

Mar 28, 2007 - 11:58am PT

dirtineye, perhaps you forgot the notice you got when you registered:

"Please keep in mind that that SuperTopo Climber's Forum is intended to be a friendly information resource for climbers of varying levels of skill, interests, and experience.

Posting to the forum is a privilege. Posts that are vulgar, hateful, threatening, invading of other's privacy, sexually oriented, or violate laws, may be deleted without notice and the author's registration may be cancelled."

Go back over your postings, with a neutral eye if possible. You decide for yourself whether some of your postings tend more towards the "hateful" than the "friendly".

Perhaps you were offended that reddirt didn't take your advice as the word of god. Well, you have a good point that it's important to keep the biner gates away from the rock. I happen to be the person who was belaying reddirt when that picture was taken, and if she had clipped in a dangerous way it would have been my responsibility to warn her. So I take your comments a little personally. I went back and looked at the picture closely. There is one clip that is worrying - the biner is resting against a corner of the rock, and the gate could get pressed open in a fall. Yeah, it would have been better to clip this differently, and I'll take your advice to heart both in my own climbing and in watching what my leaders do. However, as someone else has pointed out, it's really hard when climbing trad and using long slings to control the orientation of the biners. In this case, I don't think the biner got into that orientation until she had moved passed the next clip. As reddirt said, when clipping with dogbones this is easier, and probably more important.

So... your advice was correct, but, like reddirt, I'm not too worried that I made some huge error in this case by not warning her about the way her rope was clipped. And you really need to relax and not get offended when someone, even someone perhaps less experienced than yourself, takes your advice with a grain of salt.

Oh, and by the way, I've been climbing, with both singles and doubles, for a loooong time myself, and I have to say that reddirt, despite being a relatively new leader, generally does an *excellent* job of rope management.

Have a nice day!

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Mar 28, 2007 - 01:29pm PT

I never saw the original picture, so these are just generic comments.

There are three ways the gate can end up against the rock with a long sling. One way is that the biner has been clipped "wrong" to begin with. A second way is that it was clipped "correctly" for the climber's current direction of travel, but subsequently the climber moved to the other side of the pro. The third way is that the biner is oriented correctly until rope motions flip the biner "upside down." (These outcomes also depend on whether the pro is placed in a horizontal or a vertical crack. In one case the natural postion of the plane of the biner is perpendicular to the rock, in the other case it is parallel to the rock.)

Of the three ways, the climber has a lot of control over the first, some control over the second, and almost no control over the third.

The potential for turning a "correct" clip into an "incorrect" one by moving to the opposite side of the pro is especially pronounced with double ropes. Because they are typically clipped alternately, the next piece after the one you just clipped is two placements away, making it that much harder to judge which way the rope you just clipped will ultimately be running. Everyone I know get this wrong some of the time.

As for a correctly oriented biner flipping upside down and thereby placing the gate against the rock, there's nothing a leader can do (other than install rubber band thingy's, which interfere a bit with other uses of the sling).

I think one solution, other than doubling biners, is to carry more screw-gate biners and deploy them in critical situations. I never used to do this because the only available screw-gate biners were heavy. But now Trango makes wonderful light screw-gates (the Superfly's) and I think it is worth having a few of these on the rack for those clips that had better not fail...

dirtineye

Trad climber

the south

Mar 28, 2007 - 01:43pm PT

HEY BITEME, WHY DONT; YOU KISS MY A$$, IDIOT.

FIrst, your friend asked for advice.

I made the flat statement that she had three biner gates in a row facing the rock. This is indisputable, and bad. SHE got all pissy, so I let her have it, as needed.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

What you OUGHT to be paying attention to is that your partner clips wron repeatedly, and she can't take a helpful hint without getting her panties in a wad, and she refuses to admit her pistake, prefering instead to cover up the evidence.

As for that pic in question, there is no reason for any of those biner's gates to face the rock. the rope was actually slack as it hit the ground, you could see this clearly in the big pic, which is gone now.

Furthermore, in the unavoidable case Rgold mentions, the people I climb with who have sense will double and oppose the biner in that situation, or if they suspect that situation may occur. Most of them do this sort of thing at any crux as well, especially when the next piece is far below.

You wanna be a jerk, go ahead. You wanna ignore the facts, be my guest. I love the way you can ignore the fact that biners facing the rock is serious, but you can jump all over me for pointing it out to your ignorant friend.

Clearly you do not understand the critical aspects of climbing as safely as possible.

Rgold, I have one friend who makes a good case for doubled and opposed regular biners being superior to a single locking biner. Part of his reasoning is that the screw gate can work loose, but properly oppsed biners don't have this problem. They are also going to be about twice as strong, for the most part.

biteme

Mountain climber

Seattle, WA

Mar 28, 2007 - 02:03pm PT

dirtineye: You are obviously incapable of listening to reason...

Forest

Trad climber

Tucson, AZ

Mar 28, 2007 - 02:04pm PT

I'm actually pretty anal about my clipping, and I make a big effort to think it through thoroughly, but despite anyone's best possible efforts, it's at the end of a 24" sling, you have no real control over how it might end up. You just do your best and move on. Hopefully quickly so you can climb more than one pitch a day...

Dirt, your "advice" was given rudely and in an insulting manner. Don't be surprised when people don't take it well.

Chiloe

Trad climber

Lee, NH

Mar 28, 2007 - 02:15pm PT

Plenty of photos on this site show real climbers on actual climbs with the rope or gear doing something that would bring out the "Uh-Oh" Squad on rc.com. Can't we leave that mostly over there?

As rgold points out, biner orientation is not totally controlled by thought.

wootles

climber

Gamma Quadrant

Mar 28, 2007 - 03:13pm PT

Advanced double rope management.

dirtineye

Trad climber

the south

Mar 28, 2007 - 03:24pm PT

FOrest, go back and read the first exchange on this subject of the biners.

And work on that reading comprehension, as well as your recall.

Nincompoop.

IT is NOT my place to be nice to fools, especially when they seem to embrace their ignorance. She asked she got a very flat unbiased reply, and she went nasty. So I gave her what she deserved. LOL, I have not looked back, but she probably deleted her crappy response come to think of it. Wouldn't suprize me one bit.

CHiloe, Rgold also pointed out that these situations CAN usually be dealt with. Most climbers I climb with regularly will back track a little to fix a problem, or mor often catch it by virtue of experience, before it becomes a real problem.

AND btw, the cowardly redirt ASKED for advice, she just didn't really want any. BUt I totally agree, keeping the rc.noobery over there would be great. just how do you plan to enforce it?

wootles

climber

Gamma Quadrant

Mar 28, 2007 - 03:35pm PT

These guys are using 3 strand double ropes. That stuff is stiffer than goldline.

wootles

climber

Gamma Quadrant

Mar 28, 2007 - 03:49pm PT

Mexican double rope management. Always best to keep them separated.

wootles

climber

Gamma Quadrant

Mar 28, 2007 - 03:54pm PT

Team double rope management.

Chiloe

Trad climber

Lee, NH

Mar 28, 2007 - 04:04pm PT

Do you guys make cowboy ropes too?

wootles

climber

Gamma Quadrant

Mar 28, 2007 - 04:11pm PT

I've got some kickin' around as conversation pieces but no we don't make any.

wootles

climber

Gamma Quadrant

Mar 28, 2007 - 04:18pm PT

Mad double ropes on ice skills.

dirtineye

Trad climber

the south

Mar 28, 2007 - 04:28pm PT

Wootles, I was thinking that you should design a rope that could be boiled and eaten in emergencies.

High fiber too, I bet.

wootles

climber

Gamma Quadrant

Mar 28, 2007 - 04:29pm PT

It's called hemp.

davidji

Social climber

Mar 28, 2007 - 04:32pm PT

dirtineye,

I found it interesting that earlier in this thread when you were promoting an idea that I hold dear--use a high friction belay device with skinny half-ropes if there is any chance of a big fall--you managed to get such heated opposition. When rgold posted, I didn't see any disagreement. Certainly not of the kind you got.

While the idea behind your post was correct, perhaps your presentation could be changed if you want to win friends and influence people.

FWIW I made a post mostly agreeing with your position on the belay device, but quickly deleted it as I didn't feel like getting involved in the heated discussion. Also I've already had that discussion too many times on the past.

Carry on.
David