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goatboywonder
Trad climber
Iowa City, IA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 22, 2007 - 04:49pm PT
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Yo, I recently got a pair of double ropes for my alpine endeavors. However, rope management is kind of a nightmare! Any suggestions on how to avoid the spaghetti? Should I stack 'em together or seperately?
-Amos
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Mar 22, 2007 - 04:54pm PT
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Go climb with someone who knows how to use doubles for a while.
You can't learn to use doubles on the internet, and trying by yourself is rife with peril.
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bonin_in_the_boneyard
Trad climber
Sittin' on the dock by the bay...
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Mar 22, 2007 - 05:08pm PT
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I wouldn't go that far.
I'm a fan of doubles. On-route I coil them together over my daisy chain, leaving the loops as long as I can without getting them snagged on anything. When lead-belaying I always make sure to know where my next 10 or 15' of rope are coming from because tangles are gonna happen. Usually they can just be shaken out, or untwisted from the occasional extra loop that pulls out of the coil.
That works best for swinging leads.
For leading in blocks re-coiling when the follower reaches the belay is probably easier/safer than untying-retying. If your coils are super-neat you can always try turning them upside down when handing off to your belayer, but I wouldn't do that if the next pitch is anything more than casual.
With three climbers double ropes are great because both seconds can climb at the same time. Leading in blocks def. saves time, since two people will have to untie-retie every time the lead changes.
More here:
http://www.gunks.com/index.php?pageid=67&pagenum=1&smGroup=2&smID=4
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 22, 2007 - 05:11pm PT
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Just bring a knife in case you get really frustrated:)
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Mar 22, 2007 - 05:14pm PT
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Look man, if he's asking things like "should I stack em together or seperately, he's in bad shape, and needs help form a real person.
YOU really want to explain the ins an outs of belaying doubles to someone who knows nothing about doubles over the internet?
Again, this is not something to go at casually.
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Mar 22, 2007 - 05:16pm PT
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Double ropes are a great thing. Treat them as one. If you’re on a wandering pitch be conscious of a left and right rope. The art is in the belay, learn to only feed one when your leader is clipping and take in and out at the same time as he passes it. It can greatly reduce the length of a fall if the manky piece above pulls or you blow it clipping. It REALY reduces drag.
Use to swear by it but it definitely takes practice. Two cents from a kook
Mike
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bonin_in_the_boneyard
Trad climber
Sittin' on the dock by the bay...
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Mar 22, 2007 - 05:32pm PT
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I started leading and belaying with double ropes on my second day lead climbing. It's a little tricky at first, but the dynamics of the system don't change: you -> belay device -> rope{s} -> pro -> climber. Maybe he gets a tangle and short-ropes his leader a couple times. That doesn't mean that he's going to let go of the rope and let his leader fall to his death
That said, here I go:
Amos-
Assuming you're using an ATC-style belay device, belay normally, but put the index finger of each hand between the ropes (one rope between thumb and forefinger, the other between index and middle fingers). Practice locking one strand off while paying out slack with the other. Nothing to it, but remember you're still locking off with your whole fist, not just two little fingers. While the leader is climbing between placing pieces of pro, leave out a normal amount of slack, and keep the strands even.
And oh yeah, universal disclaimer: practice somewhere easy and safe first. And don't let go of the rope ;^)
Cheers,
-tim
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Mar 22, 2007 - 05:42pm PT
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Your advice sucks.
First, you have no idea what diameter his doubles are.
If they are small, an atx XP or guide device , or even a TRE would be in order. YOU really need to ry catching falls on 8.1 doubles with a regular ATC to see just how wrong your advice could be.
You are trying to make something complex sound very simple, and it isn't.
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bonin_in_the_boneyard
Trad climber
Sittin' on the dock by the bay...
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Mar 22, 2007 - 05:51pm PT
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I learned on 8.1s with an ATC, and an 8.1/ATC caught all 190lbs of me taking a 25' fall. It wasn't even one of the newfangled ones with teeth.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Mar 22, 2007 - 05:59pm PT
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If you have a big enough ledge, just stack them as one rope on the ledge.
I've gotten too many tangles trying to coil them over a sling. Stuffing them as one rope into a rope bag works well as far as avoiding tangles. However, it can be pretty slow and tedious.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Mar 22, 2007 - 06:19pm PT
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IF that's true, you are damned lucky, and I am tempted to call BS on that little claim.
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bonin_in_the_boneyard
Trad climber
Sittin' on the dock by the bay...
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Mar 22, 2007 - 06:26pm PT
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Pitch 2 of El Sendero Diablo, Outrage Wall, El Potrero Chico, Mexico. My belayer was in the cave. Got off route to the right, missed two bolts, and was looking down and left at the second one as my arms pumped out. WHEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
Call bullshit if you like, but that's kinda not the point.
Maybe you think people are idiots. Maybe you have weak hands, I dunno...
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Mar 22, 2007 - 06:26pm PT
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Anyone want to buy a set of 8.5 Mammuts? They have been up one 5 pitch slab route and are in perfect condition, no falls and just bought last year. Cheaper than new!!!
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Mar 22, 2007 - 06:47pm PT
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I've caught plenty of falls on 8.1's with a normal belay device (reverso or normal no-teeth ATC). The skinny ropes stretch so much that it's usually less jarring than a single 10.2mm. Rapelling is another thing altogether, and I highly recommend putting another biner between the rope and the device as well as backing it up with an autolocking safety.
To answer the original question:
yes, stack them together
Also, when leading in blocks, I find it a lot easier to untie and retie. There's no way in the world I want to reflake the whole rope(s) at every single belay. Especially not if it's a hanging belay surrounded with chickenheads.
Dirt, I don't know how you learn new stuff, but most of us have to ask around for whatever advice we can get and then go try it out (hopefully cautiously and in a safe way.)
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Mar 22, 2007 - 06:56pm PT
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Nah, Dirt is right. They were stacking bodies like cordwood at the gunks until BD came up with a device with teeth a couple years ago. I tell you they should get a Nobel for stopping the rain of bodies. Oh wait, maybe not. That said the BDs obviously do make it easier to catch a meatbomb.
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TYeary
Mountain climber
Calif.
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Mar 22, 2007 - 07:03pm PT
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Master the art of double rope management. It's certainly worth it if your on alpine rock or big mountains. It's not brain surgery, you'll get it. Be safe.
Tony
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Karl Aguilar
climber
san francisco, ca
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Mar 22, 2007 - 07:05pm PT
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dirtineye,
My buddy caught me (180lbs) with regular BD ATC on a 8.1 that I was using in Double Rope technique. I was runout and fell from 1' below the bolt on Rostrum's offwidth to even with the belay. I'm not sure how long, but something like 30' with only one rope clipped into the piece. He didn't have any problem.
We took those same ropes to the dolomites and took long falls. I didn't notice much difference between those and catching something like a 9.8.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Mar 22, 2007 - 07:23pm PT
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Great.
I swear, some of you are seem like you just can't wait to get in ANAM.
You want to go on believing in the old atc with 8.1, be my guest. Sure they stretch, want to try it with a seriously long fall?
20 feet ain't sh!t.
IT's good that at least one person pointed out the rap problems with thin ropes, but I bet you real men don't believe that either.
Since one person asked, the way I learned doubles was, I read, I bought, And then I got people who knew how to use em to show me, in person, while climbing.
You want to take chances, fine, but don't go encouraging newbies to follow that plan.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Mar 22, 2007 - 07:41pm PT
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stacking bodies like cordwood.
thank god BD stopped the rain of bodies
catch a falling meatbomb.
Thanks for that one, three good laffs with one short post!
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Mar 22, 2007 - 08:14pm PT
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You want to take chances, fine, but don't go encouraging newbies to follow that plan.
Guess it's all relative, but it's not like this is some super mainstream well-established sport here (at least not once you get to trad multipitch with double ropes.) So far as I'm concerned, we're all newbies to some degree or another.
No idea what ANAM is either; Dirt, do you drink a lot of caffeine or something? you seem a bit wound up about all of this.
you know, different people do stuff differently, and that's okay.
For all we know this guy's been climbing hard trad for 10 years and has just not used doubles much.
on the device friction thing, while I was fine for years on a normal ATC/reverso, I've recently switched to an ATC guide, and I'm lovin those teeth, for sure.
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