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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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JC Marin
Trad climber
CA
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Yep--All good over at ST.
One big happy family...what divide?
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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^^Um, I think he was talking about you, amigo.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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There's a new GarbleBase™™ in town...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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xCon needs a good Secret-Service/FBI review.
Happy 4th everybody else!
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Yeah, Happy 4th.
Every time you see fireworks, try to remember what they mimic or imitate.
Being in combat . . . . It ain't pretty.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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"There's a new GarbleBase™™ in town..."
No way man... no one can replace the Gnome....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Thankfully a county wide fire ban nixed the fireworks in Ouray.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Don’t see much hope given the two party winner takes all system.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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No I don't see much hope with the winner take all system either. I had some small hopes that the Supreme Court would crack down on gerrymandering which could improve things a little bit in the House. But with Kennedy's retirement, that is dead.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Arthur Schlesinger (1950-1951):
"If the party division were strictly ideological, each presidential election would subject national unity to a fearful test. We must remember that the one election when our parties stood irrevocably on questions of principle was the election of 1860."
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ExfifteenExfifteen
climber
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antichrist:
but think schhol teachers should still make $20,000 or less a year to RAISE THEIR F*#KING KIDS.
My experience is the opposite. The repug conservatives, whom you call the xenophobic racist mutterfukers, do not want me to RAISE THEIR F*#KING KIDS. They do want me to teach their kids, but not brainwash their kids. Big difference.
So, I've spent my life teaching, not brainwashing. I have been invited to multiple graduations by past students. They believe I made the most valuable impact on their life as a student. And I'm just a silly 'ol 4th grade elementary school teacher.
The biggest indicator of my success is not that I am invited by these students, its that my invitations come from students from far-right, far-left, and middle of the road upbringing. They have come from students who barely could get out of 7th grade algebra, to top of the graduating class. Poor, rich, quiet, activist, and the whole gamut of life.
I'd love a raise, but lets be clear. I am on summer break enjoying family, climbing, fishing, AND life. I consider these perks to be part of my salary. But sure, I'll take more money too.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2018 - 04:57pm PT
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I wonder how many people here have read Machiavelli’s “The Prince”.
One of the biggest concepts that stuck with me was the idea of how a person or group stays in power, stays number 1: by turning number 3 against number 2, and getting them to fight and weaken each other so nobody ever gets strong enough to challenge number 1.
The point here is not that half of America should be defeated/killed/tortured/harangued/etc. (pick which half depending on your party allegiance). The point is that we all need to recognize who is number 1, and what game they are playing to keep things that way.
The idea of bridging the divide, and my wishy-washy approach to bringing people together, is born of realizing that there will never be a triumphant ideological victory of one side over the other. There will just be a bunch of people not noticing who is hurting them and how much, because they are caught up in the relatively petty trespasses of each other and projecting the source of the real suffering onto each other.
Until we can learn to step away from the illusory Us and Them and join together to confront the real Them, then nothing fundamental will change for the better. Just a bunch of petty battles, changing hands of which party is in power, some rights gained or lost here and there, but nothing lasting unless it helps the richest get richer.
If you identify yourself as liberal, and even if you think you are on the right side of the ideological divide supported by reason, fairness, justice, rightness, etc... it is a bad strategy to seek out a fight for it when emotionally-informed listening and two-way teaching has not been sufficiently explored. In a physical fight, are you willing to be more depraved than your enemy? If not, you will lose. If yes, what of the high minded ideals that motivated your fight? You lost them. Now it’s not a battle for right and wrong. It’s just a battle between two groups of stubborn people, with a lot more suffering added to the world.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Wow, I guess I never realized science was "liberal."
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Excellent post NutAgain.
We need to stop playing fiddledicks while our nation slowly burns.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Wow, I guess I never realized science was "liberal."
All this time and you never realized that facts have a known liberal bias?
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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In a physical fight, are you willing to be more depraved than your enemy? If not, you will lose. If yes, what of the high minded ideals that motivated your fight? You lost them. Now it’s not a battle for right and wrong. It’s just a battle between two groups of stubborn people, with a lot more suffering added to the world.
No country has a right set in stone to a functional democracy and the rule of law. I think functional democracies are actually a bit fragile.
A functional democracy isn't just going to the polls and being allowed a reasonably fair vote. Russia and Turkey have that. But it is having an effective media that can criticize those in powers and the ability of society to have mostly rational debates on real issues based on actual facts. If a large plurality, say 30% of voters don't want to do that, the prospects for a functional democracy is grim. I don't see anything in the short to medium term (next 10~20 years) that is going to make our democracy better. A series of Trumps isn't as bad as it could get. We could have a single Trump for 20 or 30 years.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 8, 2018 - 12:55pm PT
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I don’t think a big group of people are fundamentally against facts. I think they have emotional needs that are met by the identity labels of “conservative” and/or “republican” that overpower their perception of a need for facts (notwithstanding their need for cars, air conditioning, heaters, smartPhones, Internet, and other stuff associated with science and engineering). People have a vested interest in not changing their team, especially in a society that rewards loyalty and rooting for the underdog. An altered version of this goes for “liberals”/“Democrats” who feed off of divisive memes.
I’m not trying to compare ideologies- most of you reading probably know I’m a bleeding heart “liberal”. But the point is to not demonize people who for reasons that make sense to them adopt a different ideology. Until we acknowledge the power and role that emotions play in who we are, we are not going to change or understand ourselves or each other based on rational arguments or physical confrontations.
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