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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 26, 2018 - 12:58pm PT
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So easy to overlook the real policy tragedies happening in America today given the best ongoing societal distractions that money can buy.
Today SCOTUS supported American Express to actively suppress the sharing of information for consumers to make informed decisions. Here is a great clear article summarizing it:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/26/opinion/supreme-court-american-express.html
The whole idea of "invisible hand" and laissez-faire economics rests on the supposition that buyers and sellers are aware of the circumstances for their potential deal and are able and willing to walk away from it if they don't like it. That is what provides balance and stability, what creates the environment for people to improve their lot in life through dedication and hard work. That was the American Dream. Before companies like American Express built an express lane to bypass it.
What we have in America is a visible hand of wealthy people fronted as corporations (in case they get caught and need to reorganize), tipping the scales of all three branches of our government and our media, to make sure that we don't have that balance provided by the invisible hand. They very much want to ensure that customers are captive so maximal profits can be sustained. Corporations are not inherently evil (even though the people using them may be)- they exist solely to make a profit without regard for individuals or society, and that increasingly happens by investing money in government and media to influence policies and to pacify/mollify/misdirect/confuse the public. A central role of government "of the people by the people and for the people" should be to combat this. That is what creates a safe place for individuals in our nation to exercise freedom. Freedom and rights for corporations in many cases are in direct opposition to freedom and rights for individuals. Freedom given to corporations is freedom taken from humans.
That is all well and good as a rational argument. It should motivate the vast majority of us who are hurt by it regardless of identifying as Democrat or Republican or Other.
But, emotions can overpower rational decisions, and many of us are afraid of change, afraid there is no place for us in the changing world, afraid of outsiders, afraid we don't have a voice, afraid we won't be able to survive, and we are easily led to a coalition that stokes the fear, and offers succor in the form of community and belonging, identified targets for the fear morphed to anger, and a packaged set of beliefs that promise to solve the problems, address the fears.
Reason and rational thought/discussion alone is not enough to bridge the divide in our country. What is missing is something that taps into the emotional realities that drive the fear in our hearts, a way for us on either side of the divide to accept each other and accept the fundamental truth and validity of the emotions that we each experience, whether or not it maps to our own perceptions of reality.
Name calling doesn't work. Guilt/shame doesn't work. Ostracizing and refusing service in restaurants doesn't work.
Fear is battled with love, acceptance, nurturing, listening, validating feelings, and offering new ways to perceive inputs, new ways to frame problems. Fear is also battled with balanced thoughts to temper the fight-or-flight mode reactions we have in response to fears in our lives.
Facts and truth should not be used as a bully-pulpit to invalidate the fears and feelings that people experience. Perhaps this is a fundamental truth revealed by our society's current problem with facts and truth. We just have't figured out how to balance the fundamental rightness of facts and truth with the fundamental rightness of validating the emotional reality of human beings. It takes compassion to respectfully interact with human beings, to bring people out of their shells and create the circumstances for real and consensual sharing of problems and solutions, on the path to change that supports the needs of all. It cannot be forced, either with the physical violence of guns and military, or with the intellectual violence of facts and truth.
We will be stuck in the pattern of deadlocked opposition as long as different ideological sides wait for the other side to "earn" their respect and acceptance. We must all FREELY GIVE our respect and acceptance and validation to the feelings that each other experience. This doesn't mean we have to accept and validate each others' chosen solutions or beliefs or actions in response to these perceptions and feelings- but we do have to accept and validate the perceptions and feelings that each of us has, because that is the fundamental reality and truth that each of us is starting from as we search for common ground and try to dig out of the hole our country is in.
This is the starting point to have real conversations about how to solve our problems.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 26, 2018 - 01:46pm PT
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So easy to overlook the real policy tragedies happening in America today given the best ongoing societal distractions that money can buy.
And money buys laws from Dem and R politicians too.
The rentier economy isn't new. But it is definitely getting worse. The ability of our political system to address problems, whether they are somewhat minor like screwing consumers out of a little more money or long term serious ones like climate change, is bad and getting worse. I don't see anything that is going to reverse the trend.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Jun 26, 2018 - 04:53pm PT
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Giving in to the beast is who we are.
Moderation breeds extremism
Tranquility results in deviation
Reason sows irrationality
Compassion ends in manipulation
You want a well mannered society- put cameras everywhere, I mean EVERYWHERE with an open access feed.
I can't love and hate a selfish and ill-mannered person at the same time (Trump). Our predisposition to animalistic emotions is what allows us to modulate one another and keeps us from being an ant farm.
Peace and equilibrium is achieved through measures and countermeasures.
That said, it's up to the wise and well mannered amongst us to craft the laws that keep us civilized. These are the people we must hold in the highest regard.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2018 - 06:07pm PT
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Peace and equilibrium is achieved through measures and countermeasures.
I believe in this too. I'll clarify my thinking a bit lest it pass as just a naive pipe dream :)
Sure there are "bad people" in the world, and I'm not advocating pure love and pacifism in response to all threats. I consider people as not inherently good or evil, but we all have good and evil impulses that we can choose to act on or not. Some of us lose sight of our ability to choose, and some of us get stuck in patterns of negative behavior. Some of us prefer the payoffs from negative behavior and honestly don't care about the cost to others. But in general, the best outcome from personal interactions and societal interactions happens when everyone has the opportunity to dig out of whatever negative behaviors or beliefs they are stuck in. That is only possible when people have the emotional safety to be accepted with whatever they perceive and whatever emotions they are feeling. This is totally separate from accepting their behaviors or attitudes or actions. My approach is a way to find common ground for people on different sides of ideological divides, and I don't think that inherently creates loopholes for unscrupulous people to exploit.
In terms of creating an opportunity to heal a divide between people, that is where the emotional validation and acceptance comes into play. That can coexist with a social and legal system that holds people accountable for their actions. Validating what seems real to each person is not the same as giving them a blank check to harm others. Boundaries are important, and I believe in enforcing them with solutions that are not worse than the problem they are trying to solve.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Jun 26, 2018 - 08:20pm PT
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Well said. I spend quiet a bit of time rationalizing abhorrent behavior as to not confront or marginalize. And I enjoy a friendly debate with those who have different view points.
I suppose our society is destined to be powered by the war monger and the pacifist, the eco warrior and the corporatist with the pragmatist and moderates offering a bit of steerage to keep the thing from going off the cliff.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 27, 2018 - 07:15am PT
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In the short term, it’s hopeless. Adults are retreating to the safe confines of news sources that happily feed their biases, distorting their world views and dividing people further. Many of us have a hard time discerning facts from opinion, fake news from reality. It’s always been a problem, but it’s worse now.
Long term—I don’t know—perhaps do a better job teaching kids critical thinking skills so they don’t grow up to be dumbasses?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 27, 2018 - 07:25am PT
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Adults are retreating to the safe confines of news sources that happily feed their biases,
Exactly what you been doing all along and STILL doing ......
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 27, 2018 - 07:37am PT
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Exactly what you been doing all along and STILL doing ......
Oh ok moonbeam.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 27, 2018 - 07:38am PT
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According to time and circumstance the pendulum swings.
The gross materialists are prisoners of the pendulum .......
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Jun 27, 2018 - 09:04am PT
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Here's a great quote that encapsulates the heart of the matter as I see today:
Our politics is devolving into the pathetic spectacle of liars indignantly calling out liars for lying. Rule-breakers are outraged that other rule-breakers break rules. Norms that could be violated with impunity for “social justice” can’t be violated for “nationalism.” We stick with our tribe, through thick and thin — through truth and lies.
That about says it all.
The source article:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/01/partisan-politics-truth-lies-trump-inauguration-sean-spicer-media/
BAd
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Jorroh
climber
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Jun 27, 2018 - 10:09am PT
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BadClimber...that article is full of false equivalencies from start to finish (ironically, in itself a lie).
You could say that when GHW Bush said "no new taxes" he lied. But in truth, circumstances changed and tax policy had to change along with it. I doubt Bush seniors intent was to "lie".
Similarly with Obama's, "keep your insurance" statement.
The lie about the inauguration crowd size is a flat out lie, no intent to tell the truth at all.
Can you really not tell the difference?
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Jun 27, 2018 - 06:26pm PT
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moved this post to this more better thread:
merrick garland, simultaneously the most should be but won't be
scotus nominee "the orphanator" could put forth ...
but what an healing gesture it would be
a plenty realistic prospect to win
republican votes back then
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jun 27, 2018 - 11:08pm PT
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It doesn't matter if many think they are a bridge.
They will be ignored.
The repugs with a minority of the vote have taken over the federal government and various states, due to
1) electoral college provides that the president is now often a repug despite the democrat candidate getting more votes.
2) repugs play hardball with games like preventing the Harland supreme court guarantee. Same way their policy for the entire Obama administration was to screw up the government as much as possible. Dems have attempted to be the bridge for 30 years, a policy which has failed on the federal level since they do not play the same hardball even when they are in power.
3) big money corruption prefers repugs.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 28, 2018 - 05:59am PT
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It doesn't matter if many think they are a bridge.
They will be ignored.
The repugs with a minority of the vote have taken over the federal government and various states, due to
This. It only works if both sides work in good faith. While there have been plenty of abuses by democrats, only one party—the Republican Party—has made it its mission to systematically acquire power at all costs.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 28, 2018 - 06:41am PT
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Oh ok.
Messiah much, Mr. Bridge?
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 29, 2018 - 07:39pm PT
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Let's divide the bridge.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jun 29, 2018 - 08:01pm PT
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That would be great if we could do it without a Civil War. We haven't seen this much vitriol since that era.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Jun 30, 2018 - 05:48am PT
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this accommodator says tut is wise
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jun 30, 2018 - 06:22am PT
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WAIT FOR IT!
it must be a fine life to know that whatever way the world turns, your lot will remain undisturbed.
When the Evil overtakes the good only the evil will be satiated while all else wil be starved to death. . . .
WELL, after NOT FINDING THE "THE LAST CHANCE SALOON" PICTURE,
I very much had hoped to persuade Dingus, that given his silence as to the vast atrocities thus far, all unforgivable, he gives his approval to them.
A way to find a level playing field on which to try to move a society of divisive interests forward, can not be achieved when the idea of one party is total control, domination of all the points of power , land, shelter, water, war toys and $$$, The one party seeing it own mortality its very near "end of days, the extinction of the white race, that group is trying to bring about a regressive history, a preconceived ideal that never existed in the 1st place
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jun 30, 2018 - 06:52am PT
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Repugs are a-holes
Derpocrats are ignorant
Y'all are haters
With old mind-sets
Only Ed Abbey and I are better.
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