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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 27, 2017 - 12:34pm PT
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I screwed up, and didn't get killed young.
I suffered a devastating shoulder injury that ended my serious climbing career. Too bad, I was on the fast track to an early death in the mountains.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 27, 2017 - 01:40pm PT
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Answer to OP.
We do this because we have to. Because there is no other life without this life. Some of us may experience a shift in interest and the need will die out and so we change.
A person needs to do what a person needs to be happy.
And to be philosophic:
Life consists of change. The game is to roll with the change, adapt to the change and hopefully become the driving force of the change, steering it to the best for all.
And more:
Though most people do not have a full awareness of this, we are immortal beings and life is long. ( the opposite of what you were taught to believe ) So live life as if what you do matters now and 200 years from now. Your friends are only gone for now. They will be players in your future as they have been in your past.
You will survive. Surviving is all there is. Do it well.
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couchmaster
climber
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Nov 27, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
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I was going to say that most of us don't put it out there as far as you do Velvet. Then your 2nd post hits on some rather normal climber type accident things and I have to change tack. I've often thought of John Longs and Lynn Hill's (2 totally competent people) simple and stupid tie in accidents. Double check and check again, but for the most part I think I just push the potential bad out of my mind, generally don't believe it will happen to me (the Hill/Long tie in accidents means no one, certainly me, are immune from that though). And I see folks like Donini up there putting it out there so far for so long and still so safe (alive), that it makes it easier to forget. For me.
My best to you, yours and everyone else
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Nov 29, 2017 - 09:28am PT
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Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did -Mark Twain
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Longstick
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 29, 2017 - 01:51pm PT
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Comparing wildland fire-fighting and climbing risk:
I grew up in Yosemite in the late 50’s – 60’s where my Dad was a ranger. I remember him talking about Warren Harding climbing El Cap and my meeting Wayne Merry (Fossil Climber) while standing in line at the Lodge with my tray collecting a shrimp cocktail and plate of swordfish for dinner. Anyway, I always admired climbers and aspired to one day give it a try.
College provided me that opportunity. It was the early 70’s, I was at Berkeley and a few of my fellow forestry students had climbed and were willing to take me under their wing. No climbing walls back then…just train by hanging from door jams at Mulford Hall and lizard around the outside of building walls. Then an occasional trip bouldering…usually top-roped. It was on such an outing that I realized my dream of climbing was not a ‘fit’ to my temperament. While six foot eight, I was skinny, wiry and strong. But one day climbing a crack that my buddy said was ideal size for a fist …well my fingers and hand bones were too long to make a fist to fit in the narrow crack. I couldn’t get a bite and soon panic overtook me as my hands started to pull out. My foot started to sewing machine…cursing … sweating and pulling for my life…I was close to falling. But I scrapped, tore skin, and clawed myself to the top. I also did some rappelling, which was no fun.
Whew!!
Key… no fun. It was awful. It was nauseating. And nothing was going to change me. I could not shake that experience of dread and fear. I sold my blue RR boots and stuck with backpacking, wildland fire-fighting, and forestry.
Now about fire-fighting risk, I had my share of life-threatening incidents over 20+ years of summer fire fighting. But nothing extraordinary or special. Pretty tame. I started in summer of ’73 till ‘98. Mostly as misc-overhead….no shot crews…no smokejumping. The little risk-taking on the ground never affected me like climbing gob-smacked me. I always felt I could assess the fire, the terrain, the fuels, and the weather. Learn and be smart. But boy, I did some stupid things … actually much more risky and life-threatening stuff than that day crack climbing. God let me live.
But, panic never swept over me. The risk of death didn’t keep me home when another summer arrived. I never talked to my wife about the big snags that fell next to me and nearly augured me, nor the large rollers that nearly crushed my skull, oh…and the couple of times while scouting to flag a line that I got trapped by a crown fire and nearly lost it. Kissing the earth to get a clean breath of air and hoping it won’t run out.
It came to an end when my health gave out and I changed jobs.
Why did I like one risk and not the other? I liked the way I felt when handling risk and making critical fire fighting decisions. I felt calm, memory, logic, and observation skills seemed to spike to their highest performance levels…adrenaline junky - that was me. With it I was a decisive and clear leader. Yeah, it just felt good…. So much better than the person I was during the typical decision-making on my 8 to 5 job.
I had always wondered what would I do in a life or death moments. Fire fighting gave me the answer. I so wanted to do well. I was a hard-line stickler for walking away if I felt the danger was too high. Suffer no fools…none… I had turned my back on supervisor orders that I thought were stupid. Only about 1 in 10 – 15 fires by my calculation ever posed a risk to make me tingle. On the whole, things were usually within reason. But even the easy fires made me smile, seeing the fire lick the sky was a rush.
Looking back, had it worked out differently and I became a climber instead of a fire-fighter… I think the same sort of adrenaline addiction would have gotten me killed or nearly.
Why? Because the fire fighters never ...never are willing to speak or mentally accept the loss of a fellow fire fighter. No house, no acreage, no timber was worth a life. The culture was and is safety first. That is very different…it kept me honest…to try not to lie to myself, to care for my safety and others…it was real. Fire and death was seen as a cunning enemy. If you were going down a brush filled canyon on my sector, I would grab you and say “NO!”
Climbing … do people do the same? Is risk treated as the same cunning and evil intruder? Aside from accident reports, twice checking gear, harness, tie-ins…do you do enough? Since climbing is often seen as a solo event or nearly so….then what is the obligation or role of the community and peers when safety is discussed?
It seems that climbing risk is a more like the temptress, the alluring mistress that everyone knows about… and no one talks about it with the same sense of community obligation to keep away from her. Risk is treated as something deeply personal. No one can impose their standard or opinion on another. Can one in the climbing culture say to a friend, “You are making a mistake…Stop…just stop!” Seems like climbers must honor the individual and respect their decision. You are alone.
So different than fire-fighting.
Or NOT? For I am not a climber….
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 30, 2017 - 07:19am PT
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Longstick, TFPU, that's a good post.
Can one in the climbing culture say to a friend, “You are making a mistake…Stop…just stop!”
Yes. Climbing, except for soloists, is a team sport. Climbers die in pairs quite often. When you take off on lead, you are placing your life in the hands of your belayer. When you say "on belay,' you're saying you are taking responsibility for your partners very being.
I've never understood people picking up partners willy-nilly at some campsite.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 30, 2017 - 07:32am PT
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Gary, as far as roping up with ex tempore partners goes, I've done it several times.
I recall the first time -- when it resulted in my near-death and a broken ankle after a fall of around 100'.
I never climbed with that guy again and I've always made sure to vett the climbers with whom I roped up from then on.
So I had my lesson early in my climbing career and lived to climb another day with others from NZ and MN, even remote, out-of-the-way places like BC.
Then there was Borghoff.
I never met Willy Nilly. Where's he from?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 30, 2017 - 07:39am PT
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I've never understood people picking up partners willy-nilly at some campsite.
I've done it hundreds of times.
For example.
There's this guy standing next to a motorcycle on the other side of Camp 4 parking lot.
He's looking at me and I'm looking him and neither of us knows each other.
So I drive my beater car over to him and say; "Ya wanna go climbing?"
Of course, he does and we do.
He tells me his name is John Middendorf, and that is the day I met him when he first came to the Valley .......
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Nov 30, 2017 - 08:18am PT
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Great posts Werner and DMT. I've only climbed El Cap once--when I was 18. I met two Alaskan river guides in C4. We did a couple of days of free climbing and then went for it--one of my life's greatest experiences.
What DMT says about risk tolerance and reassessment are undeniably true for most of us. As a teenager/young adult, I was bound and determined to become a badass alpinist. I read Messner, ran hills like a maniac, even tried Messner's cold shower therapy. But as I started to do ascents that were building blocks for becoming that kind of climber, I quickly started to reassess my path. Early on, a friend and I roped up with John Harlin II and his partner to cross the Andromeda glacier, each team headed for different routes. We parted ways: Us for the north face, Harlin and his partner for Photo Finish, if I recall. When my buddy and I topped out after an uneventful ascent, we sat in the too-warm sun and looked over at the cornice we had climbed around to get to the summit. We commented on the fracture line and how, one day, it would break there--BOOM! Down it went as we gaped in awe and fear, the slide wiping out almost all of our tracks from the face. Had we been a couple of hours slower/later? Bergshrund meat. Just a week or two later, Harlin's partner died in a fall while climbing unroped on easy terrain on Mt. Robson. Two early data points that said maybe badassery wasn't for me.
Years later, again in the Canadian Rockies, I was hit--not critically--by rock fall while attempting an ascent of Mt. Patterson. That was pretty much it. I shelved that dream and did what I was mostly doing anyway--cragging in the Lower 48, building my career, etc. I had some great days in the mountains, no doubt, and I cherish those memories. I was lucky, as all alpinists must be if they are to survive--even with the best judgement and care.
BAd
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mooch
Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Kernville Annex)
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Nov 30, 2017 - 08:28am PT
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There is no dark side of climbing......matter of fact, its all dark.....
;)
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bit'er ol' guy
climber
the past
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Nov 30, 2017 - 11:18am PT
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Hard to justify a turd-in-a-bag
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Nov 30, 2017 - 11:48am PT
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Ho man Werner! I remember that day well! It wasn’t actually my first visit, but it might have been my last. I sold all my climbing gear having just graduated with my engineering degree, I had a suit and only my climbing shoes, a red swami belt and a chalk bag in my BMW R60/5’s saddlebags. I had just interviewed with Motorola down in San Diego, where I was offered a 2-year contract to help design a box to house the computer for a fighter jet (the idea of spending the next two years designing a box was just too depressing), so I was on my way to Ohio for an interview with Timkin roller bearing, almost equally depressing, but at least sounded a bit more interesting than a box (these were the Reagan years, and though my studies had focused on alternate energy systems, the engineering jobs were all in defense). I just stopped in the valley on my way to I-80, for a bit of bouldering, and to gaze at the big stones one last time.
Your LeMans was low on brake fluid, and your car was slowly rolling backwards in the camp 4 lot, despite your jamming on the brake pedal. I helped to stop the car, and then we bled your brakes and gave it a few tests. We also had an interesting discussion of Bendix drives, then I recall thinking about heading back to Camp to pack up and head out, as my interview was in a couple weeks, and I was kind of looking forward to a Prissig style motorcycle tour of the country.
Then you asked about climbing! Stoked, especially as I had no gear of my own. Your car at the time didn’t have a front seat for the passenger, so I was sitting on the steel frame as we drove down along the Merced to the Cookie. All a bit surreal. At the end of the day, you mentioned a recent vacancy on the rescue team, and I headed right over to talk with John Dill, and moved my tent into rescue site that very next day, where I stayed for the next 3 years! Awesome time. Thank you again, my friend.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 30, 2017 - 03:20pm PT
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Thanks for sharing the stories, you guys.
Tarbuster's photos from
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=655407&tn=80
I guess, in a way this is even on topic. The good days can be so darn joyful that you don't want to stop. You try to stay safe enough so that you can keep doing it. From there, it's a value judgement about how you weigh your rough estimate the small daily (or climb-specific) and cumulative probability of injury/death and the pain it could cause to yourself and others against the fun of it. Neils certainly knew the pain side, and he was old enough to not do hasty risk assessment. It seems so wrong/ironic that he died climbing, even with his heightened awareness.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Nov 30, 2017 - 05:12pm PT
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Hi Clint, I realize I jumped in off topic, apologies. I don’t have anything to add about the current nature of risk, really, as it is such a personal thing and can’t imagine how people come to grips with it while being under the public eye as everything seems to be these days.
I recall conversations with Croft and Bachar about this very topic, how the nature of a solo changes with a photographer present (Croft seemed to never tell anyone of his intent, let alone organize a photographer, I don’t think anyone knew about his incredible first solo of Astroman until after the fact, whereas Bachar sometimes would let a few close friends know about things he was planning and preparing).
Niels was an amazing climber, yet he didn’t seek or need the public exposure as so many cutting edge climbers today do (the slippery slope of sponsorship in most cases). It boggles my mind how Honnold can do the things he does, with apparent complete independence from the media response. But not all are so zen—there are some examples of climbers who were influenced by the outside pressure of sponsors and public expectations, who perhaps took risk they otherwise would not have, or let the imagined ego affect choices, with sad and fatal consequences. Niels was not one of them, so the risk he undertook isn’t subject to public discussion, in my opinion. The song, “Only the good die young” comes to mind, we used to sing it often back in the day, and the happiness of surviving another adventure made every risk worthwhile. The alternative of avoiding the risk seems incredibly depressing when you can do such things.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Nov 30, 2017 - 05:57pm PT
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I started climbing at 11. It's part of who I am, so I don't have a justification that is ancillary to me. I will always be involved in rock climbing in some way shape or form.
With that said, I'm also risk conscious and understand my limits. I try not to bring any false ego to the crag. I want to touch the edge, but that edge isn't your edge, and isn't Niels edge.
Rappelling and lowering are the most dangerous parts of our way of life. I hate them, but accept them and limit their impact as much as possible.
Not sure that helps, but I think Clink's phrase above is actually quite helpful when pondering rationales and philosophy...
"I personalty recommend thinking deep thoughts and contemplating life while eating a delicious cheeseburger. :)"
The mind-body problem is just a stomach-digestion problem. Feed the stomach and brain has no problem.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Nov 30, 2017 - 08:25pm PT
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Thanks for this thread, Velvet. Nice to see climbers (if not all of them) trying to analyze WTF we are or have been doing. Some good thoughts above.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Nov 30, 2017 - 08:25pm PT
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This has been a really insightful thread.
Thank you everyone for some great posts . Mental gristle to chew on.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Warbler wrote:
I'm just going to dive right into my sexist role and point out that no male climber has ever, in 50 years of climbing, fretted about this to me personally, or here on ST (impersonally) publicly.
which seems to indicate the lack of awareness of a large subgenre of climbing literature describing the personal reaction of a climber to the death of his partner, and in this literature it is mostly men writing about men.
John Menlove Edwards' story Scenery for a Murder written in 1939 appears in a climbing literature anthology that Warbler probably knows about, "The Games Climbers Play" edited by Ken Wilson.
In a followup anthology, "Mirrors in the Cliffs" edited by Jim Perrin there is a whole chapter's worth of such stories...
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Ski.
Ski when you are old.
The rest will take care of itself.
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