How do we justify this activity?

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velvet!

Trad climber

La Cochitaville

Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 23, 2017 - 10:49am PT

Hey Team,

I need your help. In an activity where injury and death is ever present, where we have all lost loved ones repeatedly...how do we justify going back into the hills again and again?

I used to say that you could die of cancer or a car crash anyways so its worth it. But you know how many friends my city dwelling brother has buried? None. Me? I have a contacts list full of dead friends.

I know climbing is beautiful and it has given me so much. Purpose, direction, community, incredible memories and experiences. But it takes away those very same things over and over in a million different ways. Solo-ng. Classic Route. Big Mountains. Storms. Rock Fall. Rappelling.....5.8, 5.9, limit pushing. Nothing is safe.

Niels wrote to me after his brother Erik died climbing that "The mountains comfort even as they kill"

Jon Gleason wrote that at least we (climbers) have experience and memories and fully live versus normal 9-5'er folks.

Chantel Astorga says that if its truly in your desires to go, if your wishes are free of ego and Instagram, climbing is beautiful.

After Quinn's accident, all I wanted todo was run to the hills. After Niels' I'm toying with a short trip to a crag close to Aconcagua. How am I any different from an insatiable druggie or an abused girlfriend that keeps going back?

How do you justify going back after you take off your black funeral garb for the N-th time?

EDIT: I clearly do need to rethink all of this but I am literally asking what do YOU tell yourself. thanks, folks.

gunsmoke

Mountain climber

Clackamas, Oregon

Nov 23, 2017 - 10:53am PT

Kinda seems like you answered your own question.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Nov 23, 2017 - 11:10am PT

How many times can you go to the well
before you opt for indoor plumbing?

Fossil climber

Trad climber

Atlin, B. C.

Nov 23, 2017 - 12:39pm PT

Harding said, "Because we're all insane!"

But I suspect it is because we want to see what we can do, and do it in the mountains, and because when we start we think we are immortal, and because it tries to satisfy our ego. (That last doesn't work well, because no matter what you do, someone will shortly do it better)

And because we're all insane of course.

jgill

Boulder climber

The high prairie of southern Colorado

Nov 23, 2017 - 12:47pm PT

A combination of factors make it addictive. No matter how eloquent our rationales. After having left climbing for some time one might form a different perspective of the activity.

10b4me

Mountain climber

Retired

Nov 23, 2017 - 12:55pm PT

I climbed for over thirty years. Unfortunately, injuries curtailed my climbing career, but you know, I really don't miss it.

Life is short, and offers many opportunities to experience it.I often ask myself what did I miss out on by devoting my free time to climbing.

Good luck on whatever path takes you.

Bullwinkle

Boulder climber

Nov 23, 2017 - 01:11pm PT

Velvet, I've known you for a while now and have seen your passion for climbing and life grow. We've both lost many friends to the Mountains. I feel your pain, but just sharing the path for whatever distance with my friends gives me peace. . .df

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Nov 23, 2017 - 01:21pm PT

It needs no justification. Norwegian philosopher Peter Wessel Zapffe said that once we're born we're slowly dying. The only thing that is sure is death. Climbing make us feel better, feel alive, give our lives subjective meaning on our way to the grave. It's a good way of dying. Some push their borders for 50 years and live well until they're 100 years or more. Others die young...

WBraun

climber

Nov 23, 2017 - 01:45pm PT

once we're born we're slowly dying.

Oooh horsesh!t.

Just keep on livin.

Hey, Libby lets all pile into Lobers old POS rescue truck again like that time when 4 or 5 of us all got in the front seat and drove back.

Hahahaha

I steered and used the brakes and someone else had to use the accelerator and we were laughing our asses off driving back.

Way tooo funny. None of this morbid sh!t.

Git on with livin ....... hooorrahhh :-)

ruppell

climber

Nov 23, 2017 - 02:12pm PT

Every friend I have lost to climbing would not want there actions to affect mine. They would want me to keep doing what I love doing. Climbing.

There's been more than a few times that I've climbed a route again that I did with a friend that has passed. Each one of those times put a smile on my face. The funny memories that seem to come out of thin air when your just placing a piece or reaching for a crimp.

Sure, I miss them all. Sure, I questioned whether it would be me next time. Sure, I would really dig it if they where still around to tie in with. But there not and that's life. I'll keep living until I don't.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Nov 23, 2017 - 02:25pm PT

How am I any different from an insatiable druggie

I would say this attitude and sense of urgency combined with a lack of appreciation for time and statistics as applied to the risks one can take in this sport is a dangerous combination.

I don't think being a high end life climber and seeking out those next level challenges we all want necessarily has to involve such urgency and risk, in fact I think taking excessive risks is a sign you're probably taking shortcuts to get to the same place and maybe an ego check is in order before you wind up dead.

My 2c.

hellroaring

Trad climber

San Francisco

Nov 23, 2017 - 02:49pm PT

Because bowling is like drinking a non fat decaf latte...

clinker

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, California

Nov 23, 2017 - 03:33pm PT

An empty life is no life at all. You may have to dig at times to find the meaning that your own life has for you.

What your life and love means and how it is shared to/with others, both people that climb and who don't, is so important.

An out of control appetite can eventually kill you, starvation will kill you too and a lot sooner. I personalty recommend thinking deep thoughts and contemplating life while eating a delicious cheeseburger. :)

Life is to be lived and as others have stated death is a sure thing, so put some of this life into someone or something that will live on when you are gone.

From what I gather you are strong and loyal, I hope you find your peace.

my thoughts,
Jon

Ezra Ellis

Trad climber

North wet, and Da souf

Nov 23, 2017 - 04:00pm PT

Libby,
I've only lost two distant friends/ acquaintences to climbing.
I lost two closer friends to back country skiing.
I'm a below average climber with a low risk threshold.

Maybe dial it back a bit, take up sportclimbing, or take a rest.

Ghost said in the "collective grief of being a climber thread" :it sure beats having my family watch me drink my self to death.

There are a myriad of reasons to climb (or not climb). I continue because nothing else makes me feel whole and calm, nothing makes me feel in the present.

When I'm strung out on lead; I can't think about any thing else.

I guess I can't stop?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/3020802/The-Collective-Grief-of-Being-a-Climber
Maybe you can't stop either?

edit : the deep lasting friendships I have made are what keep me coming back.

phylp

Trad climber

Upland, CA

Nov 23, 2017 - 04:04pm PT

Happy Thanksgiving, Velvet.

I'm guessing we have a considerable age difference between us. At age 65, I have lost DOZENS of my friends and family, some to "old age" but most to cancer. Yes, losing people you love is painful. But life is still beautiful and filled with joy.
I have lost no close friends to climbing fatalities.
I have lost one acquaintance (who I quite cared about) to a climbing accident.
Why the difference in our experiences, disregarding age?
Most likely you and your friends are pushing the envelope of grades, speed and safety much more than my crowd does.

So that is maybe part of your question - what drives you and your group of climbing friends to take more risk? Is the risk higher for your personal friends because of what they do, despite their (presumably) vastly better skill level than the average climber?

I just read Quinn Brett's recent blog post, where she describes (I'm paraphrasing) her anger with herself for pushing it that day and taking an unnecessary risk, despite feeling "off".

I personally climb because I love the feeling of it. It's for sure one of my favorite things to do. I don't climb because I have a void that needs to be filled. I don't climb because It does something for my ego. This was a motivation when I was younger but not anymore. You asked the question if ego and addiction are playing a role in these fatalities. It's a good question, and if the answer for you personally is, Yes, maybe that's something you want to work on. The self-work I have done around ego and the void over the years has been far more fulfilling and valuable to me than climbing.

At this point in my life, I get this fantastic feeling from climbing without pushing myself, and with trying to minimize my risk. I place a good amount of gear if I can, I back off stuff I think might be too risky for my current skill level. Might I still get killed climbing? Sure, sh*t happens. BTW, I climb far less "hard" than I used to when I was younger, but the ratings don't affect my enjoyment at all. It's still the same joy. In fact it's better now.

Over 7 billion humans on the planet. I'm incredibly privileged that I actually have the time and resources to play. That is what climbing is when you come down to it, just play. Nothing wrong with that, playing.

It seems you wrote your post because you are really suffering from all the losses in your life. I'm so sorry for that. Be well and take care of yourself.
Phyl

climber

away from the ground

Nov 23, 2017 - 04:31pm PT

It makes the PBR and ramen taste f u King fantastic at the end of the day if you do it right.
+ what Pylp said.
We’re all lucky just to be here. Especially the here and now us climbers get to experience.
Beats watching your friends be killed or persecuted by wooly mammoths, foreign armies, diseases or Republicans.
Sure it’s a cliche to say “he/she died doing what they loved.” But it better than getting the chop from the cholera or an aneurysm on the pooper I reckon.
I’ve lost more than a few friends to the life. It’s just part of it all. Feel it, and then keep on keeping on.

nah000

climber

now/here

Nov 23, 2017 - 04:31pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]

and the thing about the story is, i’m sure the couple in the farmhouse was looking through the window at the troop of troubadours tromping through the snow thinking: “can you imagine living like that?”

some-times/days/years/lifetimes we’re the people tromping through the field not 100% sure if the belay will hold...

and other-times/days/years/lifetimes we’re the folks sitting in the farmhouse planning our next sport climbing vacay...

if it’s in season and you can’t imagine living like those other folks on the other side of the glass: t’is all good.

hacky47

Trad climber

goldhill

Nov 23, 2017 - 04:36pm PT

For me it is about being in the moment....escaping reality is my reality
Playing music seems to also serve that purpose for me
Finding time, gear, partners, money, energy, that can be hard
As soon as i start up, the mundane things that I find in life disappear
Also, it's not what I climb but who I climb with.
I've lost many friends oddly climbing deaths among them are few
Car wrecks , rivers , drugs, disease, avalanches, all of them different ;(
While in the moment I am generally trying to live thus not thinking about dying
I want to be " in the moment " when I die
Boots on

cat t.

climber

california

Nov 23, 2017 - 05:08pm PT

I agree with JLP, that the sense of urgency is something to be wary of.

I'm not a very good climber, but I run around with a lot of people who seem compelled to force 30 hours into every day. It's hard to not get caught up in the sense of urgency, and to judge yourself for any squandered time. Be careful of that habit, I suppose?

I've had lots of conversations in which my assertion that we should try to modulate our risk tolerance is countered by my friends with, "you will still encounter unexpected weather, or find loose crap on an approach/descent, etc." Those things are all true--there are always going to be risks--but I don't think the fact that the totally unexpected CAN happen means we should throw our hands up and say that we shouldn't even try to evaluate our own practices or attitudes.

It's okay to step back. It's okay to decide that the current level of risk actually isn't worth it, but there's some level that is. (Easy for me to say, as a crappy climber who has never pushed any limits, who had nothing to lose by taking a big long break from climbing in the year after I lost a good friend to it.)

As to what makes climbing in general it worth it: it's mediative movement; it's a puzzle with a resolution (unlike complicated work); it's an amazing way to interact with the world in a 3rd dimension, and to truly know a place; it's the source of deep friendships.