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John Moosie
climber
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Dec 21, 2006 - 04:28pm PT
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This seems like it might be a fun exercise.. .. HUH? Dang dude, you have a twisted sense of fun.... Yes, well, sometimes I do.....
Just a working theory. No actual proof, but to me an interesting scenerio.
There is a technology that could be used to set off timed charges from a distance. It is called ELF ( Extra Low Frequency ) If I understand it correctly. It is only usefull with text messages. It is what we use to send messages to our subs at sea. It is only a one way transmission as It requires a very special facility to transmit.
So my theory goes like this.
After the world trade centers was first attacked, either the government decided to wire the buildings for demolition in case of a new attack, thereby enabling them to bring the buildings down in on themselves if they were in danger of falling sideways. Not likely in my opinion, but I do believe it was discussed. Or, upon getting evidence of a possible attack, they decided to send in a team to prepare the building for demolition.
What do I base this on. Admittedly some slim evidence. Ignore it if you want. Demolition of the buildings is not high on my belief list. I just think that it is possible. How you might ask?
More slim evidence. I have heard, but have not been able to verify that the world trade centers were closed for 2 days for security purposes in the weeks before the attack. Suppose that someone high in an organization like the CIA learned of the emminant attack. Suppose that they truly believed that we needed to up the ante with terrorists and in order to motivate the American public, a large attack on U.S. soil would be welcomed. This isn't so far fetched in my mind because of all the things that we have discussed in the past and which our country has planned for.
A team of explosives experts was assembled. There purpose was not to fully demolish the building, but perhaps to just try and help it fall straight down. I know, I know, this is very difficult, but the military does train to demolish buildings efficiently. So how do they pull this off.
My guess would be a type of suitcase bomb filled with high explosives. Attached would be a clock, a small computer, and a receiver for ELF transmissions. Each bomb could then be placed next to a center support column waiting for a signal for detonation. Each bomb could be placed in the false ceilings, leading to a low chance of discovery. If I rememger correctly, a member of the Bush family was the president of the company responsible for the security of the buildings. Now, from what I understand of ELF, it is a slow transmission and the signals are generally given out repeatedly. The ELF signal would only be for telling the bomb what time to detonate. The computer in the bomb would do the rest. Each bomb would be set to go off according to standard demolishtion practices. In two days a team of 5 men could set a lot of bombs. No wiring required. It is safe, because ELF transmissions require a very specific type facility. From what I have discovered. There are only two such facilities in the world. One owned by the U.S, and one built by Russia. So the chance of accidently setting off a charge is, from what I understand, Nill....
How do you protect the explosive from the fire? Not sure of this, but am reasonably sure that fire proof cases exist and plastic is fairly stable. Also not sure if explosives would be needed on the upper floors.
What about the officers sending the transmissions, they do not need to know anything. The tech sends only coded messages, so all he would see was a coded message, for all he knows, he is sending a legit message to a sub.....
So, the CIA executive talks to the white house. Tells them of this impending plan to fly planes into the world trade center, suggests that this might be the perfect opportunity to get America involved in the War on Terrorism. The white house says, what would this require? The CIA says, only a handfull of people + we need to stand down our air defense. The while house says, thats easy, just call for a drill. A drill is planned, the timing to coincide with the terrorists plans. The people running the drill need only be told to have X type drill on such and such date at such and such time. This could easily be ordered by Rummy....
Who needs to know? One team of demolition experts. One small group in the CIA and the white house. The CIA removes the demolition experts and now who knows. Just a few in the CIA and a few in the White House.
Remember also, Mr Cheney got the orders changed so that he was in charge of calling in the air defense. To me, he wasn't really sure that ol Georgie would really have the balls to go through with delaying our air defense.
Of course.........you could leave out the demolition plan and just help the terrorist by putting together an exercise for the military that would confuse our air defense and allow the terrorists to have a better chance of success. This happens to be closer to what I could believe.....
It is funny how Condi stands up before America and says, "Well, who could have guessed that terrorist would use airplanes as bombs? Tis funny that the military ran a drill based on this scenerio but Condi doesn't know about it. Also sad that our country discussed hardening the cockpit doors and training the pilots to not open them for any reason. One of the reasons given for doing this was to keep someone from using the plane as a bomb. Why didn't we require this? Because it would cost too much. Go figure...... We figured out a long time ago that planes could be used as a bomb.
All speculation. If you leave out the bombs, it doesn't require many to know. Could ol Georgie keep such a secret. Hey, he kept the secret about spying on our own people, and he kept the secret about CIA prisons around the world. This one would weigh on him, but hey, he is a true believer. Remember, he has said that God told him to go to war....
Also, to all of you naysayers. I do not necessarily believe that the demolition occured. What I do believe is that we do not have the complete story. Too many coincidences.
Also, before you flame me. A very dear friend of mine died in the Attack on the World Trade Centers. He was an outdoorsman and musician. He was funny and a great person to share a beer with. He was extremely kind and caring. He made a mean New York style pizza and he was always up for a joke or an adventure. I miss him terribly. The world is worse off without him. Was he occasionally full on bonkers. Yes...He decided to give up the good life of living in Yosemite and become an accountant, ending up with a job in the world trade center working for the man. But guess what, occasionally I am a bit bonkers and I have yet to meet someone who didn't have their moments.
Peace and Flame on......
Lois style edit... yep, I am one of those crazy conspiracy theorists. But I am sure that you already figured that out.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Dec 21, 2006 - 04:39pm PT
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MACULATED
"...You know, it's pretty funny that this conspiracy theory thing catches intelligent people..."
Actually, it doesn't.
Curt
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2006 - 04:53pm PT
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I assume you buy the OCT? So you are admitting to not being intelligent?
Just asking.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Dec 21, 2006 - 05:04pm PT
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Perhaps your limited reading comprehension is contributing to your fundamental lack of understanding? Just a thought.
Curt
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Dec 21, 2006 - 06:24pm PT
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Mr Moosie,
The buildings were hit by airplanes, not suitcases.
It was in all the papers.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 21, 2006 - 06:42pm PT
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Damnit! The Clintons did it; the evidence mounts; get with the program. All those passengers were whisked away and sequestered in the Andaman Islands. They were sighted and spoken to by a shipwrecked Malay pirate. He managed to escape by swimming to an offshore oilrig where he told what he had seen. Somehow the story got out, and a black helicopter spirited him away. It's all there; the truth is there; only fools and the blind would deny it.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 21, 2006 - 06:52pm PT
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Hmm, just dropped in to see what was going on here. I daresay that in another 100 posts or so, you fellas will probably have figgured out whodunit!
Keep up the good work!
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John Moosie
climber
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Dec 21, 2006 - 07:35pm PT
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I know, I know, the midgets did It. I never did get that train set I wanted as a kid.
Chaz,
I know planes hit the buildings. I never said that they didn't. Thanks for your comments.
John
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 21, 2006 - 07:48pm PT
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Do you acknowledge that a jet hit the Pentagon? Just curious.
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John Moosie
climber
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Dec 21, 2006 - 07:56pm PT
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Hi Mimi,
Most likely it was hit by a plane. As I said in my post. I doubt the bomb theory. I just think that it can be done and doesn't need all that many people to pull it off. As for the white house looking the other way while the terrorist did their thing and perhaps even helping by setting up a drill that would directly benefit the terrorist, sure, that one I can believe.
John
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 21, 2006 - 10:07pm PT
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What I find interesting is, that if you believe bin Laden planned 9/11 a couple or so years in advance before they had a clue who would be in the White House, where would all these Dem OCTers be if Gore had won? Would all the OCTers then be Republicans or would there be no conspiracy theories and we'd agree that it was a classic sucker punch?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 21, 2006 - 10:12pm PT
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I'm amused by the efforts to deny a plane hit the Pentagon. One of the engines busted through the inner wall into the central area and was shown lying on the grass. Oh, and of course, there were the many eyewitnesses.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 21, 2006 - 10:15pm PT
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What was in the documents perloined from the National Archives by Sandy Burgular?
What secrets was he hiding from the 911 commission?
Was the "trash man" realy a secret DNC opperative sent because Hillary knew Sandy was a fatt azz putz and would screw up the opperation?
Enquiring minds want to know!
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John Moosie
climber
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Dec 21, 2006 - 11:31pm PT
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Hi Mimi,
Why would Bin Ladin"s planning have anything to do with who was President?
All I am saying is that Bin Ladin planned his gig. Possibly, and I say only Possibly, we find out, and decide to help make it possible. If Gore had won, then Bin Laden makes another plan, or he goes through with it and maybe our air defense intercepts more of the planes or none of them. Who knows. Too bad so much of the evidence was destroyed. Too bad our government isn't more balanced and more open so that perhaps we could trust them. We need more oversight, not less.
Too bad that our country has gotten so twisted, that to question means that either you are labeled a nut case, or you are labeled disloyal or boo hoo, you don't support the troops.
I am sick of reading about government corruption. I am sick of the hypocracy. When Bill Clinton was President, who led the crucifixion of him, Newt Gringrich. How did we learn that ol Newt was having his own affairs. Because whats his name, the owner of Penthouse magazine puts out a reward for information on these guys. And what happens. He finds out the leader of the lynch mob was doing the same thing he was trying to get the President for. This is disgusting.
Our country is in a sad state. Politics now is not who is the best leader. It is who has the most money and who is willing to sling the most mud. We have become a nation of ugly. The rich are getting richer and everyone else gets, bullsh#t. I love my country, and I am tired of hearing republicans say that I don't, just because I don't think the laws should favor the rich. I think we should be helping the poor with better education and better health care. As the country with the most wealth, why do we rank behind so many countries in education?
It cracks me up that the people who complain about how much it costs to educate one child, then take their kids out of the public education system and put them into a private system that costs 4 times as much. And we believe them that the public system costs too much. Hahahaha such arrogance....
Why is it so wrong to make someone who makes more the one million dollars a year, pay a greater percentage of their income then someone who make subsistence wages? Gosh... the poor rich guy might only take home half a million dollars a year. Oh my, what are we going to do. We need to save the rich. Yes thats right, save the rich. Those poor picked on rich people. Good grief.... The best times in this country were when we were helping people get out of lower class and into the middle class. Yes it meant higher taxes for the rich, but it also meant more people had a more awesome lifestyle. The middle class at this time is shrinking.
Opps...back on track....sorry for the rant
Bin Ladin could have planned this no matter who was president. The only difference is that if my theory is correct, and it may not be, but if it is, then maybe we could have stopped it. Hey, I understand, maybe we wouldn't have been able to. What I do see is so much corruption, that everything is starting to stink.
Peace
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 21, 2006 - 11:38pm PT
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i]Bin Ladin could have planned this no matter who was president. The only difference is that if my theory is correct, and it may not be, but if it is, then maybe we could have stopped it. Hey, I understand, maybe we wouldn't have been able to. What I do see is so much corruption, that everything is starting to stink
Ah! the misplaced angst.
Maybe if Jamie Garelck hadn't been so insistent that the CIA and FBI couldn't speak to each other he may have been stoped.
Were those the documents in Sandy Burgulars pants?
Enquring minds want to know!
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 21, 2006 - 11:40pm PT
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I'm not going to debate you here regarding your ideas of redistribution of wealth or the failures of public education. I'm too tired from work at the moment.
As for 9/11, why is it hard to accept that these guys did what they did under our noses? The flight schools should've been the key IMHO, but the FBI agent who noticed it was pushed aside. I don't think this was part of a conspiracy. Any of us could've pulled off that operation if we'd had the will. It was all about desire, balls, good planning, and being able to fly under our radar. No pun intended. One of the costs of living in a such a free society.
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John Moosie
climber
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Dec 22, 2006 - 12:00am PT
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Hi Mimi,
Haha...Thanks for not debating me right now. I have seen you debate and you have a sharp mind. I should probably delete that last post. You may be right. Perhaps our government is completely innocent. I just wish that when we look into these things, we don't gloss over questions and we really try to get answers. Otherwise, we end up with 500 dollar screwdrivers, a growing national debt, a school system that is failing, a war without end, the distance between the rich and the poor growing ect... ugh.. but hey, we still have a great country, but we are heading towards illness.
Perhaps some of my anger stems from how this country treated Bill Clinton. Like I said, we were being hypocrites, the leader of the lynch mob was just as guilty. Plus, it is hard to accept what our leaders say, when week after week things come out that show our leaders to be corrupt.
We were attacked, and our response is to create another government organization which, time and time again, is being shown to have no oversight. And instead of trying to understand our enemies, we have Condi, who says, " we don't talk to our enemies". Good grief, did we forget the saying, know your enemy.
The enemy is upon us and it is our ignorance.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 22, 2006 - 12:20am PT
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I appreciate your civility Moosie. I know we fundamentally disagree on some key issues.
When Clinton was Pres, I was very vocal about how much I disliked him. I said some really terrible things about him that I regret. The backlash we see today toward the Bush admin. is largely due to what happened to Bill. I was a part of that and I'm not happy about it. What goes around comes around. No matter who is Pres in the future, I will be very careful about how I criticize. Words have power and they can do great damage, truth be damned.
I don't think we're totally ignorant about our enemies. We've been fighting them for a long time. As for not talking to them, IMO, Iran is a lost cause from a diplomatic standpoint due to their current government. Rice is correct to not sit at the table with them. It would be a joke and only hurt us. Syria has no oil, therefore, they rely on Iran for funding. Because of that, IMO, they can be approached, although it will be very difficult to sway them away from Iran because they've developed such a strong alliance especially over Lebanon. I think Syria is more on the fence from a Sunni-Shiite standpoint, but I need to check this out further. The Sunni countries are again fearful of Shiite fundamentalism sweeping the region just like during the Iran-Iraq War. My belief about that is that we propped up Iraq to protect our Arab friends against Iran. It's the same way again. I don't think Bush and Blair will leave office without having to knock out Iran's nuke facilities. The mullahs aren't going to back down because they would lose power.
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Dec 22, 2006 - 12:29am PT
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Mimi's question had nothing to do with how Bin Laden would have been affected by who was president.
It was how would the conspiracy movement have been affected by who was president.
As an aside Mimi, if you are going to try to classify by party, CT'ers are mostly democratic(Klimmer). OCT'ers(those that don't believe that the gov planned 9/11) are both democratic(me) and republican(Woody). CT'ers created the OCT label as a word game to turn the tables.
"The Sunni countries are again fearful of Shiite fundamentalism sweeping the region just like during the Iran-Iraq War. My belief about that is that we propped up Iraq to protect our Arab friends against Iran. It's the same way again"
Agreed. And now we and our Arab friendlies are in trouble without a strong leader like Hussein.
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