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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 21, 2017 - 11:20am PT
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I threw it in there mostly for entertainment, and to balance the perspectives of ... that have been voiced within this thread against the other extreme.
sound's like Fox News, "fair and balanced" and entertaining...
gee, do they have any women anchors there anymore? the didn't seemed so amused I guess.
You trivialize the re--post as "entertainment" by which I assume I am supposed to not take it seriously, then you point out that there is a "bit of truth" to it, I further assume that you mean to say that it is serious.
So you are being a clown? entertaining us? perhaps you see it as the role of a jester, someone who plays the fool to spear the "politically correct"? You do so from a rather safe vantage point, there is no risk to you for making your point.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 21, 2017 - 11:29am PT
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"extreme" is an interesting word:
ex·treme
ikˈstrēm
adjective
1. reaching a high or the highest degree; very great.
2. furthest from the center or a given point; outermost.
...
you had a hand in climbing some of the "extreme" routes in the Valley, back in your day... yet today, they do not seem so extreme.
the standards have changed in climbing.
might they not also change with regard to our biases? does not that change come from those who might be characterized as "being extreme?"
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 21, 2017 - 11:32am PT
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you "re-posted" the Urbandictionary "definition"
you had some choice as to what to post to define "antifeminist"
this one from the Wikipedia article on that topic, re-posted here:
Antifeminism is broadly defined as opposition to some or all forms of feminism. This opposition has taken various forms across time and cultures. For example, antifeminists in the late 1800s and early 1900s resisted women's suffrage, while antifeminists in the late 20th century opposed the Equal Rights Amendment.[1][2] Antifeminism may be motivated by the belief that feminist theories of patriarchy and disadvantages suffered by women in society are incorrect or exaggerated;[3][4] that feminism as a movement encourages misandry and results in harm or oppression of men; or driven by general opposition towards women's rights.[5][6][7][8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifeminism
you didn't choose that one, why?
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c wilmot
climber
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Jan 21, 2017 - 11:35am PT
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Feminism sounds great if you never had to deal with it. Having had to listen to my feminist teachers rant about their ex husbands and how all males were evil I can say that feminists are often the most biased people. These same teachers tormented the tomboy of my class for being the "wrong" type of girl. When they accused her of being our gang leader she dropped out.
At this point it's just another word ending in Ism to describe a hateful attitude and set of beliefs.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 21, 2017 - 11:42am PT
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Believing in God is one thing, believing that those who don't are evil is another.
indeed
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 21, 2017 - 12:23pm PT
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Thanks for the photos from this historic day Sycorax, esp that last one.
I'm glad that article led to these discussions. I wish that same article had been less of a draft and more of a finished piece. I'm still not convinced that it's trying to say the things that are being read into it. Hopefully that will be clearer in her next piece.
Climbing is natural, elemental and intrinsic in the human soul. The contemporary 'rules' or styles in climbing are always arbitrary and unnatural. Thats true in every era.
Climbing is individual. We each have strengths and weakness, advantages and problem areas. I climb largely with women partners. I don't think gender is the biggest dividing line in climbing. Differences in motivation, experience, and time spent at the "Crag" matter more.
Off to pull some outdoor plastic in the drizzling, 40° air, something I wouldn't have imagined myself or anyone else, doing when I started doing this fifty odd years ago.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 21, 2017 - 01:13pm PT
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Let's try to put some rubber on the road here, shall we? (No sarcasm intended).
You all are expressing a broad range of opinions here, so this is as good a place as any to solicit one.
Background:
I was asked to do a historical narrative for an upcoming publication about climbing in Yosemite National Park during a specific time frame.
The prologue:
Two old friends, both women, both present in the melting pot of Yosemite and the Meadows during this timeframe, recently visited my home. Back in the day, they were part of a group of young women who worked, hung out, and played together. I asked them about some of the others and how they were doing.
To paraphrase the answer I received, "We get together from time to time. We joke about ourselves. And we say: Yo Babes unite!"
To which I responded, "Wow. *Yo Babes*. That's colorful. A contraction of Yosemite Babes? I get it. You actually call or called yourselves that?"
"Well, yeah, we still do, Roy."
"How did that come about?"
"Some guys used to call us the Yo Bettys, and we didn't really like it. Somebody came up with Yo Babes, and we liked that better so that's what we started calling ourselves."
The fulcrum:
I included the term Yo Babes in my story, to identify this particular group of friends and place them in my narrative. One of my fact checkers suggested that this was sexist. And further suggested, historically accurate though Yo Babes may be, as it is sexist, it is inappropriate for modern publication. Another casual editor suggested: Yes, Roy, you might want to omit that as a matter of *tone checking* yourself.
BITD, I wasn't even aware of this Yo Babes moniker, but I was certainly aware of this group of young women. Now that I have a name which circumscribes their group, it's quite useful as a device for including them in my story. I figure since they currently refer to themselves by the name Yo Babes, and also did BITD, that it is fair game.
My thought is that Betty is a gender specific slang primarily adopted by males, but that Babe is not, because it can refer to a boy or a girl, a man or a woman. So this is why I suspect my girlfriends are okay with Yo Babes when they use it to identify themselves as an independent and cohesive group.
The question:
Am I being insensitive and sexist by including this group of young women in my story under the banner of Yo Babes? Is it inappropriate?
(Not a rhetorical question. I'm looking for considered opinions on usage here.)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 21, 2017 - 03:57pm PT
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Well, if not Yo Babes, Kevin, I have to substitute Yo Babes with those young women (girls) that hung out and didn't really climb so much, but were totally a part of THE SCENE.
Or I have to name them individually. Either option is clumsy, or likely to be inaccurate.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 21, 2017 - 04:05pm PT
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Pushing the limits of climbing is an ongoing positive progression with no downside...
This left coast centric forum doesn't represent
Actually, tens of millions of women around the world protesting this very day say you're wrong. And it's pretty f*#king sad that in 2017 tens of millions of women around the world felt compelled to march in protest of this very shit:
Or as our own dear Callie puts it:
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cat t.
climber
california
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Jan 21, 2017 - 04:44pm PT
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Tarbuster,
I'd just include the story of how they picked the name. In context it doesn't seem insensitive. It sounds like, by choosing "babes" for themselves, they got both an amusing name for their group and a way to make fun of the patronizing name someone else had labeled them with.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 21, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
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Thanks, Cat.
You are correct. My problem (and my editor's problem) with explaining how they got their name, is there is perhaps too much artifice there in doing that, which makes it clunky, and it distracts from the flow of the overall context of the story. But it's on the table as a consideration and I appreciate your taking a crack at it!
What I do say is that the women were self-styled as the Yo Babes, which indicates that they named themselves.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 21, 2017 - 05:44pm PT
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Tarbuster, the self-styled phrasing is adequate.
Not every single reader will notice or probably deem it worth mentioning.
You should roll with that, Yo Dude.
Tell your editors I said so.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jan 21, 2017 - 06:21pm PT
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Tootsie
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 21, 2017 - 07:50pm PT
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Roy what if you just say that "Yo Babes" was a title they called themselves? Is that so long a way to run?
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cat t.
climber
california
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Jan 21, 2017 - 07:50pm PT
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Tarbuster, I think it's fine with only the "self-styled;" was that included when your editors commented?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 21, 2017 - 08:10pm PT
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Yes, Cat, both my editors, (two women), and the fact checker, who is an ardent feminist, first encountered the characters in the text, at the beginning of a sentence, as <The self-styled "Yosemite Babes" or "Yo Babes" [did xyz]>
It was the feminist fact checker, and her husband, who took umbrage with my usage of Yo Babes. I value their collective input, so I'm taking a hard look at it. Both editors, and five other women who read the piece, found no problem with it.
Jay, the reason I don't say they named themselves is that I don't want to get into explaining, because it draws unnecessary attention to the choice of phrase and hangs up the flow by creating an issue. If I predicate them as self-styled it is more fluid.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jan 21, 2017 - 09:04pm PT
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hey there say, tarbuster...
i am too simple, and perhaps too easy-going, as to all this...
not sure why--perhaps from growing up in my home?
so, i am not sure if what i say helps, but:
i really feel that you will do well and you will/and DO, have a good gut-feeling,
as to how to do your article... :)
you have a good heart, and conscience, and, may all go well...
say, can you use a footnote, or something, as to anything that might not
be understood as to how you mean it? would THAT still let the writing
go smooth, if you need to still go over this?
whewwwww, it is so hard to please everyone, we all know that...
best wishes to what you do...
i admire when folks try to do the best that they can,
in the light of so many different trains of thought, and
serious issues, or, personal issues of others, that
writers run into... very hard, harder than folks realize...
happy good eve to you, tarbuster!
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jan 21, 2017 - 09:07pm PT
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They feel things more strongly and acutely .. it's one of the things that makes a woman irresistibly attractive.
The feeling that you feel as a man is that you are irresistibly attracted to a woman? But a woman, as a woman, would feel that feeling even more strongly and acutely? What would that be - irresistibly irresistibly attractive?
Yea, sure, ok ...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 21, 2017 - 09:32pm PT
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Thanks Neebs!
And a warm happy hug and a good evening to you!
..........................................................
Ed was on target when he said:
If feminism is anything, it is the work of untangling these biases, recognizing the merits of everyone in an unbiased way, and providing equal opportunities to all.
Though I am slightly removing Ed's sentence from its context, I selected it because of his usage of the word untangling. Untangling is the operative here.
Here's how I see it: you name something, or more importantly, someone, then by some measure, you control this thing or person. Probably this has to do with object relations. Feminists (and notably any discrete groups undergoing oppression) are particularly sensitive to labeling and categorizing because there is at play an element of objectification and subjugation. Or the feeling of it.
When boys call girls "Bettys", the girls probably feel they are being quantified, coveted in an object relation way, and therefore controlled, and no longer regarded as persons.
Why should "babes" be any different? Is it because it's not a twist of a female first name? Partly I think this is so, for the Yo Babes. But it mostly has to do with who is doing the naming to begin with. If I name myself, I am in control. If someone else names me, I may feel they have taken control.
But if I use the name women have taken for themselves, and refer to them accordingly, as in Yo Babes, in historical context even, I'm now being sexist or somehow naïvely or intentionally supporting sexism?
This is a tangle! (I'd like to hear opinions about my usage quandary in my writing from more women who consider themselves feminists). It's a tangle for sure, and also illustrative of the broader issue being discussed here in this topic.
Somewhere in the text of Davita's piece, or in the piece she referenced, it was tabled that "babes" has become unacceptable usage for men when they refer to women. It's on the list of improprieties.
Ed, Kevin: instead of using the term "extreme feminist" in your dialogue, how about substituting extreme with fanatical, or absolutist?
It's true, bigotry, sexism, racism, ultimately benefits no one, in the long run. But in support of what Kevin has been getting at, isn't it plain that every worthy movement has its outliers which beg to be delimited in some fashion, at some point along the arc toward fanaticism? Otherwise don't we all court absurdities at the far end? In a word, reverse discrimination? In my one read through of Davita's piece, this is what I saw as her message.
She first had to survey her territory, so this is where her writing seems to meander, but in doing so, she opens up other issues which have also been discussed here.
Namely: do guys just make themselves a doormat to any fanatical ruling coming their way for the next 100 years in the interest of setting things straight for all? I can't see that working.
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