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couchmaster
climber
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Jan 18, 2017 - 01:38pm PT
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Impressive, even if you only look at the great climbing pictures like I did. Thanks for sharing.
Someones been checking out Supertopo: "The reality is that we’ve forgotten, in our politically correct culture, that men and women are sometimes rude to one another."
Especially the men. On political threads!
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cat t.
climber
california
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Jan 18, 2017 - 01:48pm PT
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What about this alternative to the "climbing is totally sexist and racist to boot"/"sexism and racism in climbing is totally made up" debate:
Climbing itself is very open and welcoming and, in 2017 at least, is not particularly sexist or racist, but in society at large there still exist many pressures and implicit restrictions on women and minorities that might make them less likely to participate in activities such as climbing. Societal expectation might keep some people away from climbing, but climbing itself isn't sexist.
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Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
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Jan 18, 2017 - 01:54pm PT
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Bruce,
Thanks for sharing this very thoughtful article. Much appreciated. From my personal experience, the climbing community is pretty egalitarian and I don't see as much sexist behavior here as I do in other arenas. At the climbing gym I frequent, the biggest bigotry seems to be from the route setters who think everyone is tall, to the great disadvantage of my short, lovely wife and passel of shorter friends.
The "complaint feminism" the author describes in the cited article reminds me of the dynamic between my mother and grandmother. My mother has always thought of herself as a victim, and has experienced life less fulfilling than my grandmother, who always took charge of her own destiny, complained little, and just forged ahead to live an utterly remarkable life. It's a personal choice, really.
We are all one big family, and I extend my heart-felt thanks to everyone who makes our community such a wonderful family.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jan 18, 2017 - 03:11pm PT
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I'm against Passels, in general.
We should outlaw them in civil society.
They should have separate schools.
Just like dentists!
heh ;)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jan 18, 2017 - 03:13pm PT
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Reading an article like that makes me realize how old I am - at least two generations removed from that kind of feminism. If women think they have it bad now, they should have tried to climb in the old days! Then again, our attitude was different. We were proud to prove to men that we could do things and enjoyed watching their shock and awe when we did. That's a far cry from the sensitive victim mentality.
One of the sources of misunderstanding I think that crosses the generations is the difference between how men talk with their buddies and how they act. Were Trump's comments just "locker room talk" or were they sexual assault? Were the various boob threads on ST innocent fun or degrading? I don't think men and women will ever agree on that.
It wouldn't matter probably if men and women were equally vulnerable to sexual assault, but overwhelmingly it is women who are raped, beaten and murdered by men, not the other way around. Thus touching someone who is being spotted can be a prank to a man and very threatening to a woman depending on the circumstances.
Perhaps what has changed which makes women more sensitive, is that men are not as respectful and restrained as they used to be? The sexual revolution is not without it's problems.
The solution? Tough women can climb with men and sensitive women can climb with other women.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jan 18, 2017 - 04:02pm PT
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For me, the idea that median black wealth is still only 1/13 median white wealth, or that women earn only $0.76 to a man's dollar, and are 15 times more likely to be raped than a man, are just the result of "actions by individual people" is maybe not the most effective way to understand or work on fixing the problem.
I think it runs deeper than that, and sometimes as we try to figure out exactly how it does work, we get it wrong. Sure, ok, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The hidden source and effect of "statements that climbers make without putting too much thought into what they're saying" may not be as benign as we want to believe those statements are without putting too much thought into understanding them.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jan 18, 2017 - 04:07pm PT
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Nice article. A breath of fresh air in a time of political correctness.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 18, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
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As opposed to two thousand years when feminism didn't go far enough? That said, I also know which gender of the two is the smarter, more competitive and inherently dangerous.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jan 18, 2017 - 05:10pm PT
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Tami: Learn to speed-read!!!
I do, but there's so much to read. A good summary or excerpts posted can encourage me to dive deeper.
I'm sort of with Sycorax. This is a writing space, and it would be good if people did it.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Jan 18, 2017 - 05:15pm PT
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Nice article. A breath of fresh air in a time of political correctness.
I have difficulty identifying political correctness and seeing its extent. Could you help?
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jan 18, 2017 - 05:18pm PT
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Using our law of small numbers, it's hard for us to see (why we should dig deeper) past the first sentence. IMHO, our law of small numbers will not be able to fix racism or sexism.
Politically correct is like scientifically correct or logically correct. All this fuss about being correct is overblown in today's political environment - we've moved past the need to be correct. We're just Special that way.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jan 18, 2017 - 05:30pm PT
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Silly, anti-PC fodder. What a ridiculous article.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jan 18, 2017 - 06:54pm PT
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Disappointing article...I thought this was going to be about Cosmic's reassignment surgery...rj
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jan 18, 2017 - 06:55pm PT
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I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 18, 2017 - 08:25pm PT
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The Man said it best:
"Vy can't ve chust climb!"
BTW, I still have one of the "Angst less, climb more" t-shirts from stzzo.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 18, 2017 - 10:28pm PT
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I thought this was an interesting perspective, which is not entirely obvious.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Jan 18, 2017 - 11:49pm PT
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an intentionally respectful piece...
always hard to be a part of, what without doubt is generally a still [but also certainly less] marginalized group, and point out that within a particular subset it is more complicated... without being called an uncle tom.
and so kudos to the author... while i'll never know for sure, i leave believing her...
the question that, i believe, should be asked when micro/macro-agressions and their ilk are suspected is:
would the result have [actually/certainly] been different if i was not female/coloured/queer/etc...
as the author suggests, the initially assumed assumption is not always the correct one...
ie. there are many who have, for example, internalized being a part of a warrior class and so have accepted being sent off to war, and are then mistakenly assumed to be enemies based on the bookcover...
when in reality, if vulnerability was presented, they might have shown themselves to be allies...
[aka uncle tom is sometimes sister tom: the only way one knows for sure is to risk oneself: aka to assume, is to guarantee death... whereas to hope is merely to risk death]
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 19, 2017 - 03:23am PT
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Maybe it's my state of mind reading this at the end of the day, it this seems rambling and unfocused and I don't get what the point is. It's not written in a way compelling enough for me to want to reread and find out.
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