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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 25, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
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Yeah, the run ins I've had on ledges have been rattlesnakes in Arizona. You don't have to worry about those so much in Alaska. But, then I didn't have to worry about cornices or seracs falling on me...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 25, 2016 - 05:32pm PT
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Geezers looking down on noobs to feel better about themselves, seems about the cheapest possible way to boost to your self esteem. I sometimes get my laughs watching them as well, but I reserve my shots for when they pipe up about something.
There is a 13 on Castleton now, I assume you were up there checking it out? It's what a lot of the kids these days climb.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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May 25, 2016 - 05:51pm PT
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JLP, not all geezers are compelled to lay it out for the boobs and noobs.
Jim, of all folks, doesn't need to excuse or to explain himself, or shouldn't.
And I don't want to be an apologist for that Colo-centric a-hole [ ;)0 ], certainly,
but his record of ascents and of posting topics of interest is hard to beat around the ST.
In his opening gambit here, donini said:
"A whole other topic could be how much time people waste getting in and out of belays....that could fill volumes."
Some "n00b" named Killer K (with over 200 topics attributed to him) decided to take Jim up on just that topic.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2818346/Efficient-belay-changeovers
Edit: Great stunt pic, Alexey! Sly dog...
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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May 25, 2016 - 08:35pm PT
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His cup runneth over . . .
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 25, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
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I've been 'cupped' in Russia. Not sure they were 'trained professionals'
but those wimmen were bigger and meaner than I cared to argue with so I
gave in. It was kinky and perverted and yer back looks like you had a
major makeout session with an octopus.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 25, 2016 - 09:24pm PT
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I've got 59 years of climbing and counting, although at nothing remotely close to what Jim has done. I've had some learning experiences on the way, and the central lesson I learned was not about minimalism, but rather
DON"T GET EFFIN' HYPOTHERMIC.
I think I'm perhaps more than ordinarily cold-sensitive---my wife says I'm a Coldstone. I wear a dry suit windsurfing in the Spring on the Hudson River when some people are just wearing trunks and a t-shirt. So maybe I'm not exactly average in this regard.
That said, I've gotten hypothermic three times.
1. Tetons. A noob climber, chock full of big-mountain training at that well-known alpine center, Devil's Lake, WI. Couldn't follow a jumbled Teton route description if there had been arrows painted on the rock. There were no arrows painted on the rock. Got off-route on the East Ridge of Nez Perce, wandered somewhere over to the North side of the ridge, and blundered on up to the summit. (I believe our mistake is recorded as a "variation" in the Ortenburger guide.) Carried an overstuffed pack with way more than was needed. Set it down on a ledge and then kicked it off, resulting in a summit bivouac in a decidedly minimalist t-shirt. After a really brutal night of shivering, my sense of balance was gone and I couldn't stand, much less climb down. Anchored to the rock and jumped up and down for 20 minutes and my balance came back. Eventually recovered the pack too.
Moral: getting rid of extra stuff doesn't always work out so well.
2. Yosemite. East Buttress of Middle Cathedral Rock. Hit by a violent summer storm a bit more than half-way up. Entire face turned into a foot-deep waterfall. Unfortunately, I was belaying in a recess when the storm hit and had to crane by neck to keep my head from being under water; the rest of my body was in an ice-water cascade. I had a rain jacket but it was intelligently stashed far away in a pack carried by my partner. By the time he made it up to my belay (with as much tension as I could supply for the pitch), I'd been in the ice-water bath for perhaps a half hour and had full-body muscle cramps. Every damn muscle seized up, I was a pitiful ball of pain and spasm lying on the ledge. Fortunately, the storm blew over and we aided the rest of the route with my partner leading everything.
Moral: having extra stuff you can't get at when you need it doesn't always work out so well.
3. Red Rock. March, temps probably in the low 50's, maybe high 40's. Winds steady at 30mph, gusting higher. At this point I'm very experienced and living the minimalist dream. But this one was a bad dream. The unrelenting wind slowly drained body heat. A pitch or two from the top, I took twenty minutes to set up a belay with perfectly good cracks everywhere and realized I was not at exactly the peak of my mental prowess. Turned the last two leads over to Bragg, who himself had been sick earlier in the day but fortunately is not a Coldstone.
Moral: the desert isn't always hot. Dressing as if it is doesn't always work out so well.
If conditions had been just a little worse in episodes 1 and 2, I probably would have died. In that case, learning by experience would have been of somewhat diminished value.
Now that I'm in my seventies, I get cold even easier. Everyone probably knows the minimalist adage about lay out the clothes you think need and then get rid of at least one item. I lay out the clothes I think I need and then add one piece more, 'cause I really don't want there to be an episode 4.
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ElGreco
Mountain climber
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May 25, 2016 - 09:38pm PT
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Wow. Some sensitive people on this forum...
Elitist or not, Jim is suggesting something that everyone can try on a climb that's not so committing for their ability level. Maybe you don't need that 2nd extra jacket. Maybe you can pound water at the base and get away with 0.5L less on the climb. Maybe you can leave the pack behind and dangle a soda bottle on your harness and climb that chimney with a smile on your face. Maybe less crap will feel liberating as your poor muscles won't be overloaded, and being outside will resemble that glorious feeling of sending the shi* out of that pink 5.10a/b in the gym.
I am no hardman, and my climbing resume is inconsequential. But I've gradually managed to strip down unnecessary crap and discovered how much more enjoyable climbing becomes. I still have a ways to go. But I question the utility of each thing I carried after each climb. I am also regularly grateful for having certain things and bring them again.
Try it. You may just have fun.
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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May 26, 2016 - 03:44am PT
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Rgold,
As always I really enjoy your well written prose, and great tales. I've been caught in a few epics myself!
Jim speaks of bringing minimal water on a climb. Well, as Jim knows, we are polar opposites in our water needs. Jim drinks the least water of any guy I've ever climbed with, and I need at least 3x's the hydration.
Yesterday, I drank at least 2 liters on a 3 pitch 5.10, and was still dehydrated last night. It seems, as I get older, I even need more water.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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May 26, 2016 - 05:05am PT
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once again you've set a new standard, locker...
that photochop is spilling over with both elegance and panache... :)
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christoph benells
Trad climber
Tahoma, Ca
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May 26, 2016 - 05:47am PT
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People like too many gadgets. Envision the route ahead. Bring only what you need, to save space for things you may pick up...
examples of specialized gear to be used selectively:
PAS
gri-gri's and kong gigi for belaying
cordalettes
tricams
small cams
big cams
21 cm ice screws
gear slings
rope
helmet
harness
shoes
hands
feet
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 26, 2016 - 06:11am PT
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Carry everything all the time and just call it training weight.
Seriously the best thing I ever did for alpine stuff was to get an accurate digital scale that went up to 12 pounds.
It's amazing the weight you can cut on long trips by chasing after every ounce. And every ounce matters when you have to drag it up 10k+ feet.
Twight had a good book that addressed the minimalist approach. Even though I'll never climb the Ogre or K2, gravity still works the same way on much shorter icy bumps.
Your knees will thank you.
But as Rgold pointed out... don't die chasing ounces.
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matlinb
Trad climber
Fort Collins, CO
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May 26, 2016 - 06:20am PT
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On longer multi-pitch routes that take a wide variety of sizes, I try to leave the gear I don't expect to use with the 2nd and only carry the sizes I need for the pitch I am leading.
There is also some gear that I know I could live without but find useful enough to bring along, e.g. a grigri, PAS, prusik, and some cordelette - which the 2nd carries and I use to beef up suspect belay stations.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 26, 2016 - 06:30am PT
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Counting grams is crucial in
the Alpine game.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 26, 2016 - 06:41am PT
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Jeez, does EVERY thread have to degenerate into a slag-fest? This is an important discussion. I struggle with gear selection a lot. Sometimes I get it right, sometimes not. Being generally chickensh#t, I usually carry more pro than I need. I hate being runout and having nothing to go in. It's nice to hit the sweet spot, however. On my first lead of Hospital Corner @ Lover's Leap a million years ago, I put in a lot of gear. And that climb takes everything from pretty small wires to hand-sized cams. I finished with only a couple of pieces left--and they both fit for the belay! (This was in the good ol' days before the bolted anchor.) Perfection. For Leap climbs, I clip in a lightweight pair of runners for the walk off, but my partner and I made the mistake of wearing approach shoes down to the base of 3rd Pillar of Dana. That was stupid. Bulky pack for the second, although not super heavy. For alpine stuff, I'm a stickler for fleece caps and wind gear with hoods. A little bit of coverage on the ol' noodle goes a long way. On multi-pitch, it is common sense to ditch the PAS, although I have grown fond of cordelettes/webolettes for equalizing belays.
BAd
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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May 26, 2016 - 08:24am PT
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Amen JD, how many epic's have been created by slow progress in the mountains? This forum is an opportunity for the less experienced to learn if you're inclined to learn from written material. For those who need to learn the hard way (like myself) we can only hope the experience remains with those who need the lesson and not a SR team or the polite party stacked up behind them. Going light, fast and efficient is no guarantee for safe passage but it is almost always a good tactic.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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May 26, 2016 - 08:30am PT
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Back in the time before gear began being racked on the waist we carried it all on slings over the shoulder. The shebang got in the way and the larger the rack the more it got in the way.
I liked the protection of a large hexcentric on a 9mm loop, but they were the biggest offenders in terms of racking, ESPECIALLY on slabs, where they effectively obscured my vision.
I NEED THAT FOOTHOLD--but where is the thing? Sheet!
So what are the chances that you'll need that big chock on a slab is what I should have asked myself more often than knot. I began leaving the larger, clumsy gear with the belayer--Ike and I began using this system on GP Apron routes.
I began to see the efficiency of doubling the uses of items on the rack, enabling me to leave some stuff in the car. It helped that the 9mm loops could double as runners on bolts, for example.
And Throwpie introduced me to this technique, utilizing wired stoppers.Thanks, Pie!
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 26, 2016 - 08:44am PT
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Mr. Mouse, Agreed, it's always good to shoot for multiple use tools when you want to travel light! I remember upgrading from 9mm to 8mm on the hexes - that was high tech!
Mr. Coldstone, thank you for the cautionary tales and suggestions regarding hypothermia.
Mr. Johnson, That shot of Jay Smith in the middle of it is the shit!
It's good fun and a good way to travel light when leading a pitch to make a game out of seeing how much of the rack you can leave with your belayer before heading out - don't piss 'em off too much though.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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May 26, 2016 - 11:42am PT
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Donini: Despite some sharply explained opinions, this thread has generated a good and useful discussion. TFPU
rgold: whoa, great stories and lessons.
Locker: Once again, LMAO.
Mouse: Mighty creative stopper usage...lol.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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May 26, 2016 - 11:59am PT
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Good send Jeremy :-) .
Mouse, where I come from, that is called bomber psychological protection.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 26, 2016 - 01:32pm PT
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Jim. thank you for starting this thread. I know exactly what to bring to Cannon or Lake willoughby. I am completly clueless about the Tetons. Isa and I are embarking on a 6 week roadtrip and plan to be in the Tetons for about the 1st two weeks of july. Do we need crampons and ice axes??? ice axes we have but we do not have crampons that will fit on our approach shoes. toying with the idea of getting some poons with the universal basket style bindings but do we need those? do we need real mountain boots? ARRRG.... Thanks. Clueless in VT.
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