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pedroccda
climber
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Jul 31, 2015 - 01:48am PT
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I don't think so....
"I think that would happen with most wire gate biners if the draw or sling sideloads the gate. Your job is to rig your gear so that doesn't happen."
I think carabiner can move during climbing when tou are above it so you can't control it!!!
Dangerous!!!
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richard masonn
Big Wall climber
revelstoke BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2015 - 07:43am PT
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I can guarantee this biner was NOT back clipped. I have 15 years Trad / Big wall experience. I have taken 1000s of trad falls and know how to operate a quickdraw. Im not trying to convince people not to use these biners. Im simply reporting an incident. I understand people will have different views and blame it on user error etc. It will be your own decision whether or not you use these biners. personally i think the easiest solution is to just use something else, but like i said, thats your choice to make. climb hard and be safe
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 31, 2015 - 10:21am PT
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Again, I view it much more as a problem with the design of the dogbone, not the biner: too stiff, too short. That was pretty apparent the moment I first picked up an Ange S draw and why I bought bare biners and ordered Metolius bones to make draws.
I would 'chalk' that design decision up to those draws being designed with a 'harness-handling and clipping feel' appealing more to sport climbers.
That said, it is the sort of nuance that's easily missed if you're somewhat more inclined to trust manufacturers' decisions and don't sweat the small details. But you're the one who'll be leaving the ground with it so it might be worth looking at every aspect of new gear designs and running it through your own filter.
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Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
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Jul 31, 2015 - 10:29am PT
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I have taken 1000s of trad falls
1000s of trad falls in only 15 years?
You'd have to work like a dog to chalk up that that kind of falling, almost disregarding anything except putting another tick in the "I failed" column. Boggles the mind.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Jul 31, 2015 - 10:57am PT
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As a trad fall specialist, this must be just one of many
gear failures/injuries/mishaps.
At a 2% mishap rate, there would be at least 40 events.
Any other good ones?
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 31, 2015 - 11:03am PT
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thousands of falls exaggerate much?
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dirhk
Trad climber
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Jul 31, 2015 - 11:45am PT
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70 falls/year on average seems totally reasonable, even low, if one does a fair bit of sport climbing.
For examples, let's say you only get out sport climbing 25 times in a year, like 12 weekends ish. If you only fall 3 times each time you go out ... 75 falls/year*15year> 1000 falls. And this seems like a conservative estimate.
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 31, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
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he said thousands and he specifically said trad falls.
no big deal who cares
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Prod
Trad climber
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1000 "takes" seems reasonable.
Prod.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Well, I'm about as old as any of ya, and every carabiner on my rack is a wire gate, with the exception of three Petzl Spirits I rack nuts on.
By and large, I'd say that my climbing longevity partly because of technological advances, not in spite of them.
Of course, none of that stops people from denigrating things I say based on my age. Personally, I prefer actual reasons related to the subject under discussion, but the ad hominem attack is easy to deploy and plays well to audiences who at heart are not interested in the discussion anyway.
Moving on, it seems to me that the Petzl engineers understood that there was a catching problem with their gate, which is why they added the conical plastic "fairing" to the bottom. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be big enough. Perhaps we will see an updated version of the carabiner with a bigger cone and/or a revised shape at the hinge. Meanwhile, it seems that either a tighter draw or a keeper or, on the other hand, a softer draw with a bigger opening, combined with some clipping awareness, would mitigate the problem.
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pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
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More is following. I found that issue can be reproduced with any dogbone. Thus I skipped on altering dogbones and start to alter binners.
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pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
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philo
climber
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I have to wonder if these scary scenarios had a part in Dr. thrill's freak accident.
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pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
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I also have the same shots with Trange Phase, DMM Shield, MadRock Ultralight, Wild Country Helium, BD Oz (both hooded and old), DMM Alpha Trad, and Petzl Ange S.
It is easy to repeat: slide a dogbone up to position it against the binner's gate, twist the dogbone about a whole turn, pull. Viola!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Under what field circumstances would a dogbone ever be subjected to a full turn?
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Sport-o-land
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WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE and should probably start using lockers on every piece of gear....
Seriously though, every carabiner has a potential failure method. Some are more likely than others. I've got stacks of older gold BD positron carabiners. Can't tell you how many times I've seen that thing cross loaded. But generally speaking I pay attention and correct it if it happens. Or if it is mission critical that a biner can't break I use two opposite and opposed. I'm sure a few of my partners think I'm crazy but I've broken enough carabiners to know that they do break.
And currently I've got a whole rack of Petzl Ange S biners. Can't say I've noticed them acting weird or the dogbone getting caught on the gate anymore or any less than other carabiners I've used.
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pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
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rgold, operator mistake.
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pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
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I saw it (twisted dogbone) several times - people clips on traversing terrain, then dive under the rope, and that's it - dogbone is a whole turn twisted. That's a more or less common way to repeat one possible operator mistake.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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^^^^what mikeyshaefer said^^^^^^^
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WBraun
climber
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WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE and should probably start using lockers on every piece of gear....
It's true.
Me and Bachar used lockers on a lot of routes because of the potential for gates opening in case of a long fall during long run outs .....
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