Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
you can't go faster than the speed of light Well actually this is true. At least given what we know now. And if not true then our understanding of the universe is inside out.
Which is of course a remote possibility.
I vote that we stay home and clean up our act. Wisdom from the mouse.
As for how long it would take to reach and live for an extended time on the nearest habitable planet?
Mars..... unlikely in my lifetime but the probability of sometime in the next 50 years approaches 1. In My Not So Humble Opinion
How long to reach the nearest habitable planet outside our solar system?
Let's find it first.
Unless they, having evolved beyond warfare, have put all their energies into social engineering and scientific knowledge and exploration. And find us first.
Having previously acquired some knowledge of human history they may decide we are in fact sub-human and deserve enslavement and promptly put us to work in virtual chains. Those unfit to work can be bred for food and eaten. Much like cattle.
Or, having studied us from afar, they decide we really aren't worth the bother and bypass us on their way to the next inhabited galaxy. Why would they detour to an island of loonies before going to the nearest planet inhabited by intelligent beings?
Or quite possibly we will have raised the atmospheric temperature sufficiently to make Earth uninhabitable for ourselves and extinguished human "civilization" as we know it.
Long before we've achieved the technology to escape to the next nearest long term habitable planet.
It's all possible.
==
G.O.D. damned funny! and a fine tribute.
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
UGH! ,EDIT)
MAY be we are just here to provide another . . ? species, body parts.
To be harvested and used to further Their continuing exploration , population, space travel, Like a filling station along the way where they can pick up a spare Appendix or Brain Stem or what ever?
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
Assuming humans survive the lunacy of the rabid enviros, so called progressives, globalists, and the oddball dictators without conscience and dreams of world domination and subjugation, and the far more real dangers of errant celestial objects, mammoth CME's, gamma ray bursts from nearby supernova, super volcanoes, hitherto unseen virus's of species destroying lethality, etc etc, we will continue to flourish until necessity of resources pushes us off planet. In this hypothetical future the level of technology will be as indistinguishable from magic as first contact between recent moderns and previously undiscovered Amazonian bushman tribes. The universe is our oyster until we run into those more ravenous than us.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
"...we will continue to flourish until necessity of resources pushes us off planet. In this hypothetical future the level of technology will be as indistinguishable from magic as first contact between recent moderns and previously undiscovered Amazonian bushman tribes. The universe is our oyster."
technology is not divorced from science, so some basic constraints on the technology have important consequences for using "unlimited technological advance" as a policy for deciding on how to manage limited Earth resources.
in particular, measuring the energy required for any form of space travel is a good place to start, and if you are looking for some metric, it is the tradeoff of the economic investment in particular space-travel technologies and the cost of routine space flight vs. the economic gain from the activity (and the time period over which that gain is accrued).
on every robotic space flight the total mass of the instrument being flown is ruthlessly accounted for as that mass requires a well known and very limited amount of launcher energy. a major innovation in solar system space travel was the use of the inner planets to scatter off of and gain energy (converting an infinitesimal fraction of the planet's kinetic energy into a finite and large change in the kinetic energy of the spacecraft). this is an unexpected innovation which enabled the exploration of the outer planets, but it is not clear how it can be used in human space exploration.
travel near the speed-of-light has well defined energy requirements. "warping" space-time has a set of energy requirements that are well defined. these physical requirements lead to specifications and the specifications are what technologists have to meet in order to realize the goal of extra-solar-system travel. but the fundamental laws of physics may limit space travel to the effective light-travel-time between two places in space, thus preserving causality (which seems to be necessary in our universe). it's a big galaxy, and space travel to most of it is probably limited to one way travel even if we could solve the energy requirements.
betting that future technologies will cure all the world's ills is just that, a bet, and so far it is not a bet that can be made with any surety. this is especially true when justifying current bad-practice on the basis of an unknown-future-technological fix that will undo all the negative effects.
not only that, but the exponential increase in the number of humans outpaces the implementations of technologies developed to provide resources for those humans. the only aspect of technology that keeps pace is the number of technologists... that alone is not sufficient to provide exponential technology growth (though it might have given us a false impression of that growth in the past).
|
|
Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
|
|
The Fet said:
There are proposals out there to travel at 10% of the speed of light. If that can be achieved that puts MANY planets within traveling distance of a human lifetime. If we can do long term sleep that further eases the journey.
That is not quite true (depending on what you think "MANY" means). There are 14 stars within 10 light years of the Earth. Sirius B is a white dwarf and probably should not be counted, Luhman 16A and B and Wise 0855-0714 are very, very cool stars and probably don't count. So the number is 10 stars we could reach in 100 years or less. You don't get much of a time dilation advantage at only 0.1c.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
There are proposals out there to travel at 10% of the speed of light. If that can be achieved that puts MANY planets within traveling distance of a human lifetime. If we can do long term sleep that further eases the journey.
What is usually never sufficiently appreciated, even in the speculation that typically accompanies science fiction, is the degree to which human biology is fundamentally yoked to the environment of Earth. When the various limitations of long distance space flight are conjectured one never hears about the biological limitations ,which are nearly in the same degree monumentally insurmountable as those surrounding some of the physics.
|
|
limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
|
|
Don't hold your breath that we're gonna find life on any one of a billion earths.
Even if all of the amino acids necessary to build proteins are already present and stable, the odds of one of the simplest proteins in plants and animals (iso-1-cytochrome c) forming by chance is 1 in 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (75 zeros).
In other words, we're gonna need to find a LOT more planets if we hope to even find a simple protein. Not to mention that proteins are a long way from self-replicating life forms, so we better find a buttload of planets if we want some interstellar friends!
 In case you're curious, you can read more about that crazy number here: Yockey, Hubert P. (1992) Information Theory and Molecular Biology, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, pp. 255, 257.
On another note, some mathematicians estimate that anything with a probability of less that 1 in 1(with 150 zeros) will not occur, and Yockey's number is within that parameter, so......maybe we can find a protein?
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
NASA also estimates 2.5 billion, billion idiots.
|
|
Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
|
|
Mars..... unlikely in my lifetime but the probability of sometime in the next 50 years approaches 1. In My Not So Humble Opinion
Because we have demonstrated so much commitment to interplanetary travel since we sent or last man to the moon 44 years ago...We spent 20 billion for that, which translates to 100 billion today, or 8 billion per person. That's the current nasa budget for everything.
Mars is about 1,000 times further at its closest approach.
What's our budget on the Mars mission?
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/NASA-finally-talks-Mars-budget-and-it-s-not-6562388.php
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
Ed I'm with you based on what we know so far.
However we have recently begun to accumulate evidence suggesting that we have not even observed most of the universe right around us and the laws that govern it.
I'm guessing that if we ever do get to know this universe it will be far different than we expect or are likely to imagine. Considering that has often been the case when we have discovered something. Also I expect we will find the new knowledge has practical applications that will be impressive.
I don't think society is likely to screw up bad enough to wipe out the whole race. Most of it..probably..
all of it?.. not likely. It will either be something cataclysmic as described by Rick or just the passage of time and evolution that ends the human race.
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
There you go again Eddie. Why would you want to shackle the race with the constraints of the primitive understanding of 20th and early 21st century physics. What are absolutes today may well yield to deeper insights and practices of tomorrow.
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2016 - 03:58am PT
|
rick summer,
too often we only think of the soup-products of this Big Bang --- with its constraints of matter and energy we are bound to live with -- this Universe.
A more likely scenario ? Many Big Bangs have happened. They are truly in the Elsewhere unless you can Astral Travel. I mean Big Bang Travel.
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2016 - 06:39am PT
|
Whatever Dingus. We are far from a perfect understanding of the physical world. We still don't have an adequate understanding of ourselves as a species. The basis of our science, theology,the very reference point in which our reality is anchored seems to be inadequate or illusory. We are primitives still unaware of the extent of that which is known as unknown.
Another thing that seems to be prevalent in people's thoughts here is the notion that we have exceeded what is natural and the world is suffering or dying from our unnatural practices. I find that odd given we are step on the evolutionary path of life on earth. Life is a force equal, or near equal, in the shaping of this planet. Perhaps the DNA has a deep master plan and our activities are what is dictated in the shaping of the necessities of life in the future and the natural evolution of earth. Perhaps even a necessity of a master plan for expansion beyond earth. The evolution of new worlds. Manifest destiny of a cosmic scale.
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2016 - 08:04am PT
|
Another thing that seems to be prevalent in people's thoughts here is the notion that we have exceeded what is natural and the world is suffering or dying from our unnatural practices. I find that odd given we are step on the evolutionary path of life on earth.
I would agree that humans cannot do anything unatural. Natural seems to be a word without any real meaning.
However I would suggest we can and are doing things detrimental to our own well being.
Back on topic.
Permanent thriving self sustaining settlement of other planets or moons..let alone other star systems is pretty far off if ever it seems to me.
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2016 - 08:19am PT
|
6,000,000,000,000,000 morons in this galaxy alone
It is 5,999,999,999,999,999,999.
I am not an idiot!
Moose
He said morons! HAHAHAHAHA
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2016 - 01:41pm PT
|
I would agree that humans cannot do anything unatural. Natural seems to be a word without any real meaning.
Pfffffftttt! Nature has been natural for the past 4 bill yrs on earth. Natural should be considered a very slow methodical progression in the expanse of nature. Man has realized with reason that he can progress nature with the implementation of more heat or cooling. This speeding up/down of the progression, is NOT natural. Before man animals prolly could've continued in their lineage infinitely. Man with his reasoning method has put to death thousands of species and has put in jeapordy earths survivability. With this in mind mans inclination is to "beat street" and head to a new planet. Ha.
God has shown us His creating capabilities with a 4 billion yr long track record. He granted man reason, and said "let's see what you can do".
|
|
limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2016 - 01:57pm PT
|
Well, historically after every mass extinction comes the next great speciation.
We're just helping out the future species by opening up a few niches :)
|
|
Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2016 - 02:02pm PT
|
Natural history does predict we will become extict...
It's just a question of how soon and how.
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2016 - 02:03pm PT
|
So by your definition Humans are "unatural" that is a concept difficult for me to agree with. It allows people to somehow think we have some "magical property" that protects us from the laws of the universe. That we are somehow radically different from the rest of the universe.
We are not.
Before man animals prolly could've continued in their lineage infinitely
They will anyway. Man will as well for quite a long time I suspect.
Man with his reasoning method has put to death thousands of species
Yes. As have a few other events in Earths history.
has put in jeapordy earths survivability
Huh?!..the rock itself is doing just fine. The life on it is stressed a fair bit but much will still go on..different and for a time with much less variety. Eventually those species remaining will once again evolve into multitudes of new interesting species.
I don't think humans even have the power to accidentally destroy their own race. Civilization yes, very likely..all of us everywhere..no.
Sadly I will agree that we have, and will continue to decimate a vast variety of other species for however long this civilization lasts.
Unless we develop many so far unimaginable clean techs.
Life will go on however.
These can be fun conversations with the right people.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2016 - 02:49pm PT
|
So by your definition Humans are "unatural" that is a concept difficult for me to agree with. It allows people to somehow think we have some "magical property" that protects us from the laws of the universe. That we are somehow radically different from the rest of the universe.
I didn't say we were unnatural. Just that we're able to do the unnatural. Like flying. Like creating steel. Like creating plastic. Etc. This is how we are radically different than the natural nature universe we have observed anyway
Eventually those species remaining will once again evolve into multitudes of new interesting species.
All the species we've witnessed thus far have all been brought about by a natural progression. It shall be interesting to see what kind of species appear with all the new added kinds o resources to the natural environment, like blacktop, cement, plastic, rubber, pharmaceuticals, pesticides, etc, etc.
Yes. As have a few other events in Earths history.
Awe, but we countinue to do it knowingly turning a blind eye as to not interrupt our pleasures.
We have secured a magical position within the universe, it s called free will.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!