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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
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Al- As I say in the film my issue with these guys is how they have chosen to characterize their activities since these climbs went up. I have been around and around for years with Jensen and Smith about their preparations, goals and methods in doing WOS and it took Ammon and Kait repeating the climb to clear some of these issues up. I am glad that they chose to repeat this climb and report what they found.
Do climbers owe the rest of the community an honest accounting? I think so. Clearly others here do not.
I have read everything that I have been able to find written by Jensen and Smith and it is voluminous and taxing material to wade through as a historian. Most folks will answer simple and direct questions about their activities in an honest and forthright way but not so here.
I have to thank Jeff for including as much of my footage in the film and extras as he chose to do. His film is primarily about his friend Ammon and the WOS discussion is somewhat secondary to that central purpose. What is missing are interviews with the folks that chose to erase the first two pitches and cause the controversy in the first place so Jeff has to fill in the blanks regarding their motivation for doing so.
What has gotten lost in the turf war angle is respect for the resource and traditions of Yosemite big wall climbing. Jensen and Smith had virtually no micro flake hooking or copperheading experience when they started up WOS and no wall experience to speak of having prepared themselves in isolation at the Riverside Quarry and never measured themselves against any established routes consensus rated A3 or above that they have been willing to disclose.
Again some think that this level of preparation is the cool part of this story and others like me see such lack of experience and skill as disgraceful hence the controversy that follows this team and their climbing.
With all of the amazing routes that have been done boldly and well on El Capitan I continue to be amazed that folks just can't get enough of WOS. I know what I need to about these guys from a historian's perspective and so don't waste time wrangling with them having already done so exhaustively.
When I came on the ST years ago, I did so amidst the earnest attempts by Jensen and Smith to revise their history long after the fact. I asked folks clearly at that point to characterize me any way you like but deal with what I am saying and I still maintain that position however controversial this all seems to the casual observer and as harsh I may come across after years of frustration in attempting to extract the truth about these climbs.
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John M
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
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Some things I see..
At 43 minutes of the film Mark says something along the lines of (heavily paraphrased as I'm having trouble with the play back)…. "looking back, I ask myself if there is anything that I did wrong, to create this conflict, and the answer is No).. This is to me very telling in the mentality of Mark as earlier in the film he says that it was probably naive to come to the valley and expect to just be allowed to put up a route on the captain. The statement about it being naive comes at around the 30 minute mark. I'm sorry that I can't be more specific. I'm having a lot of difficulty getting the movie to play back.
In my mind these two statements don't jive. If it was naive, then a mistake was made. Granted making a mistake out of naivety isn't in my opinion as heavy a mistake as say purposely doing something that you know is wrong. But, it is still a mistake. And its this reluctance to admit a mistake that has rubbed people wrong from the very beginning.
At the time Mark was just entering his 20s, as he says in the film. It is fairly typical of 20 year olds to believe fully in themselves and not believe that they have to justify their actions to anyone else. In their minds the rock was public rock, they had the requisite skills, they weren't going to do any harm, and thus they should be allowed to do the route.
That is typical 20 year old thinking. It is, in my mind, the hubris that people reacted to. That 20 year old hubris. Did they have the requisite skills?. Since they pulled it off, that would have to be yes, though an argument could still be made that they got lucky. They have since gone on to climb more and varied things and their skill is in my opinion now more obvious. I could see though, how those in the valley at the time would question their ability to do the route in a proper style without drilling their way up it and would not necessarily just accept the word of two young people.
So I don't have trouble with Steve or others questioning or doubting them at the time. I do have a lot of trouble with how it was done and what was done to them, including many of Steve's comments in more recent times about how they lied about what they did. From what Ammon says, they didn't lie.
But the question has to be asked, what can a group do to stop someone who is determined when the climb is being put up on public property which they have no real control over?
What you end up with is hubris against powerlessness. And the results aren't that surprising considering the age of many involved.
I have one other thought. I wonder if Mark and Richard would have continued and finished the route at the time if they didn't have the push back and pure cussedness in their face at the time. It almost seems to me that they might not have. Just a thought. It would take someone who is very stubborn to put up that route, or very determined. Opposition is one thing that sometimes steels the resolve of 20 year olds. Heavy opposition tends to stop more 20 year olds, but in a rare few, it causes them to become more determined. This was a route that required incredible determination to put up.
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 12:27pm PT
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In terms of visual destruction climbing leaves a pretty hefty toll on the valley. The amount of chalk scarring on the boulders and routes is off the charts. Most of this is permanent damage at this point. So whenever you get upset about a "style",or a route you disagree with, or a bolt or whatever- remember that YOU too are guilty of desecrating the stone.
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Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
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Nov 24, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
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In the spring of 1982, I was a very young man visiting Yosemite for the 3rd or 4th time, getting better at climbing, wanting to belong. It was a thrill to get to know people who knew people, and to feel like a part of the scene. One topic of conversation was Wings of Steel and the “losers” who were there, how they didn’t belong, their religion, their lack of skill or experience, etc. Mostly the conversations were about how someone not in the club had the audacity to attempt anything like this. These conversations happened at camp 4, at the deli, at the lodge. I was helping friends haul loads to the base of the Aquarian wall and heard conversations there as well.
With the desire to feel a part of something bigger than myself, I soaked up these conversations. Yet somehow in my heart it didn’t feel quite right. I didn’t do anything to spread the rumors. I doubt I ever said anything bad about those guys. But I didn’t speak up and say that it just didn’t feel right either. Is that any better?
There have been countless threads about WOS and the film. Many say they don’t care and it doesn’t matter. But clearly it does matter. We keep talking about it. Why? Even if they would have drilled, or chipped their way up, they weren’t the first. Even if it was a crappy route, there were others way before them. In the worst case scenario they would have hardly been ground breaking. Why does it come up over and over?
Nietzsche defined master morality and slave morality. Master morality reflects those who bring out the best in others, who don’t let their egos get in the way of seeing the potential in other people. Slave morality reflects our need to bring others down so we feel better about ourselves. As a community we all make choices as to whether we can encourage and support others or whether we can do our best to bring them down. It’s far easier to feel a bond based on hatred than on love. Ultimately our character is more defined by how we treat one another than by what kind of climber we are.
I don’t think it matters that much whether anyone thinks WOS is a good route or not. I think it matters a lot whether we own the choices that we made then and now about how we feel about all the players. Grossman is a mean-spirited, vindictive person at best. At worst, he seems sociopathic to me. I’m sure the SAR people would have participated in a rescue had one been necessary. But many still engaged in slave morality. Why couldn’t they have encouraged these guys to have the best adventure they could have?
I don’t mean to pick on Yosemite, or a certain era. But I think some understanding of why this is important is useful. I would like to think that I belong to a community that encourages each other and brings out the best of us. In the past 30 years that’s mostly been the case. But I do still think about that early summer in 1982 and what it felt like to be part of the herd mentality, what it felt like to not speak up even when I somehow knew better.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
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c wilmot said:
chalk scarring on the boulders and routes is off the charts.
Most of this is permanent damage at this point.
OMFG !!!!
Anyways ...... Steve Grossman did not used chalk as I remember ......
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
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What is it about Wings of Steel? No route ever in the history of McTopo has attracted anywhere near the attention. To say that "nobody cares" is the understatement of the century. There are literally THOUSANDS of posts here on this forum concerning it!
I often wonder why I care so. I think it's just because Richard and Mark were treated so badly for so long, and the satisfaction of seeing their resultant vindication. It's not like it's a "great route". But it sure is hard - too hard for me. And I've climbed a few hard ones. ;) I could just be too much of a chickensh|t to set myself up for certain thirty- to fifty-foot falls! Geez, I'm been climbing for 35 years, and my longest whipper was thirty feet, and it's the only long one. I can't imagine doing what Ammon did - poor Kait was so frazzled she wanted to bail. Glad she didn't.
The human part of the story has always been more interesting to me than the climb itself. That the very Sh|tter would return a quarter century later and apologize is huge to me.
I agree with Werner - I do not see Mark and Richard as prideful. In spite of rather a lot of ranting. ;)
In terms of visual destruction - c wilmot - this climb is almost invisible! I had walked by its base countless times to climb other route. You need a good eye to even find the damn thing.
I can't remember if Mark and Richard made the 5th ascent of Sea of Dreams before or after they put up WoS.... anyone recall?
" Grossman is a mean-spirited, vindictive person at best. At worst, he seems sociopathic to me."
Such a thing to say!
And in spite of Dimitri's rantings, I am quite certain I remember Steve speaking of SAR's reluctance to rescue them should they have run into trouble. I wish someone would listen to that bit at the end of the DVD, and give us an accurate quote. Maybe I'll have to find my DVD and listen myself and report back.
"I have one other thought. I wonder if Mark and Richard would have continued and finished the route at the time if they didn't have the push back and pure cussedness in their face at the time. It almost seems to me that they might not have. Just a thought. It would take someone who is very stubborn to put up that route, or very determined. Opposition is one thing that sometimes steels the resolve of 20 year olds. Heavy opposition tends to stop more 20 year olds, but in a rare few, it causes them to become more determined. This was a route that required incredible determination to put up."
I have always believe this - that the opposition and the chopping and sh|tting spurred Mark and Richard on to the level of resolve required to finish a route like this.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
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Thanks, BJ - I missed the weird video reference by Jingy.
Great posts by Al Smith, John M and Mike F.
Thanks for your thoughts.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 24, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
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Well, I had hoped that you could just stop, Steve. But no. It's apparently not possible, as defamation is in your nature.
And, as I've said for many years, I won't sit idly by in the face of yet more vomitus....
Again some think that this level of preparation is the cool part of this story and others like me see such lack of experience and skill as disgraceful hence the controversy that follows this team and their climbing.
Clearly we were prepared enough, regardless of whether or not we walked in your mighty footsteps. It's a shock, I know. But, well, there it is.
With all of the amazing routes that have been done boldly and well on El Capitan I continue to be amazed that folks just can't get enough of WOS.
It must indeed be frustrating for you that your "amazing routes" have not gotten CLOSE to the level of coverage that your own spewing about WoS has.
Sadly (and I mean that), you have succeeded in undermining your own credibility to the point that your honestly respectable climbing accomplishments have indeed gotten overshadowed by your frothy-mouthed and now indefensible haranguing.
The answer you are seeking is really quite simple, and it's been handed to you on a silver platter by many of your friends (and former friends, as I happen to know). The answer is: Because you continue to stir the turd even when it becomes increasingly obvious over the years that you don't know what you are talking about, and you never did.
The route awaits a third ascent, Steve, and the climbing community breathlessly awaits YOU to do it!
Oh, right, you can't "waste your valuable climbing time" on experiencing the truth for yourself. What ARE you spending all that "valuable climbing time" doing now, Steve???
LOL... yeah, far better to just keep spewing! Oh, wait, you repeatedly threatened to climb it, but then never did. Then threatened more, but then never did. Then got asked by many when you were going to make good on your publicly-stated plans to "set the record straight," but then you never did. Instead, you just kept spewing.
The spewing has always been the issue. You yourself, and those like you, are the ones that established the place WoS has in history. Ironic, isn't it?
I know what I need to about these guys from a historian's perspective and so don't waste time wrangling with them having already done so exhaustively.
You are NO historian. Period. You have no formal training in it, and your own publicly-obvious biases entirely unfit you for the role.
And isn't "formal training" the thing you keep harping on? I mean, where is your Ph.D. in history? Even an M.A.? Do you HAVE even a B.A.? In what discipline?
How DARE you call yourself a "historian" without having trodden the requisite path to requisite expertise? Isn't this your last big beef with Mark and I? LOL... oh the irony.
Historians bring intentional objectivity into their research and actively seek ongoing peer review. You have NO objectivity and don't even seek it, given your oft-repeated claims that you (and a very few other buds) were the ONLY ones setting the high bar bitd.
You've even bagged on the Bird for not rising to your lofty standard, and you've never been able to integrate the FACT that WoS was done with (by your own lights, such as they are) far less "heavy handed" tactics than many Bridwell routes (as if that is the primary basis for evaluating the quality and value of a route).
Historians actually seek out the best available evidence and publicly revise their statements when further evidence demonstrates their previous perspectives to be wrong. You do not. You got on a band wagon and have stayed on it when virtually everybody else saw the increasing piles of evidence and bailed off of that rickety, POS cart that was headed off the cliff.
But not you! You ride that sucker down like Slim Pickens in Dr. Strangelove.
And your claims that we engaged in "revisionist history" about our activities is so flagrantly and publicly false that the fact you keep repeating this claim, as though your endless repetition will one day finally validate it, is the surest sign that you have none of the requisite perspective that would make you even minimally qualified to act as a "historian" for the climbing community.
The fact that you post up old articles and so forth makes you at most a librarian.
Historian you are not.
When I came on the ST years ago, I did so amidst the earnest attempts by Jensen and Smith to revise their history long after the fact.
This line is getting so old, and is so obviously a public lie, that I go from just weariness to fresh fury. I have forever resisted what some (and even two attorneys) have repeatedly urged: Sue the jerk for defamation!
The climbing community does not need that sort of thing, so I resist. But, Steve, I'm telling you publicly and formally: lines like that are flat-out defamation and are actionable. Your friends should quickly engage in a fresh round of trying to talk you down and tell you to shut up.
You have been on a bandwagon of unreasonable hatred and lies for decades, and you are now virtually alone in your own last-ditch efforts to vindicate your behavior.
FEEL however you want. I don't care. At this point I honestly just find you pitiful. But your endless attempts at character assassination are defamatory.
Mark and I have been honest and forthright at a level not often seen publicly, because people like YOU have demanded and demanded and demanded!
We have answered questions at a level of detail never before expected of climbers. We have been as transparent and forthright as is humanly possible. And as much as could be expected, the revealed facts have borne our what we have said. But YOU insist on continuing to make assertions about our characters and integrity.
I've learned over the years that I cannot just sit by and "let the truth come out," because that approach only let jerks like you dominate the narrative for decades. No more. So now I will not sit by and let you spew crap again and again like it is fact, and by my silence make it appear to anybody that there is no good answer and that the truth really can't be determined.
There IS a truth here, and it bears no resemblance on any level to the pure garbage you continue to spew.
I asked folks clearly at that point to characterize me any way you like but deal with what I am saying
At this point, in the face of the facts, nobody can figure out WHAT you are saying.
and I still maintain that position however controversial this all seems to the casual observer and as harsh I may come across after years of frustration in attempting to extract the truth about these climbs.
Steve, frankly, you have NEVER been seeking the truth in all of this. You have been seeking solely to vindicate your increasingly precarious perspective IN THE FACE OF THE TRUTH, so that you could justify your own involvement in a decades-long and very systematic defamation campaign.
I'm telling you now and very publicly to stop the defamation that you are alone in continuing. Only YOU continue to publicly engage in character assassination, and only YOU have the temerity to do so in the face of the mountains of evidence opposing your perspective.
I'm totally past it, right up until YOU start stirring the turd afresh. Would YOU simply allow the stink that YOU have created and keep creating to just dissipate?
*
Oh, and just to correct one other ridiculous statement you made in the film, actually we were not "in trouble up there" after we got onto Aquarian Wall (actually at any point). There were no storms by that time. We were very low on food and energy, but we were not even CLOSE to in need of rescue. We had the matter well in hand at all points.
And regarding being "pushed" into Aquarian Wall, again, this is YOUR revisionist history, not fact. Our earliest scoping of the route demonstrated what is quite obvious even with the naked eye: the route's final crack system leads to within 50 feet of Aquarian, and that is where we always intended to end the route. Except for the time it took, the route went exactly as planned. There IS actually a line there, although it is apparently too subtle for your eye. And the whole line leads directly to Aquarian, which is where we went.
You make such statements as part of your endless attempts to paint us as incompetent. But we were not incompetent, and even your "offhanded" statements are false. So, I (yet again) set the record straight.
The reason you can't get the "answers" out of us that you claim to seek, Steve, is that we simply refuse to pander to your distorted and outright false perspective of reality.
Stop defaming us. That is all we have ever asked or sought on these forums. CAN you stop?
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 24, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
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FWIW I've done a lot of "training" for my aid climbing in Joshua tree and riverside quarry. I feel like people think "riverside quarry, pfft whatever" but the reality is that the aid routes that Jensen and Smith put up at the quarry are thin, chossy and difficult and (more importantly) on par with the type of aid climbing you'll find in Yosemite.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
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Steve shaking hands and apologizing to Mark and Richard would be an effective strategy. As practising Christians, Richard and Mark are 'contractually obligated' to forgive, assuming genuine repentance is offered.
The Sh|tter apologized, and was forgiven. Could Steve do the same? I would bet against it, but I'd love to see it happen, because I believe in forgiveness and reconciliation.
What really struck me in Richard's abnormally short rant, apart from the fact that he should have written "an historian" rather than "a historian", was this:
"The spewing has always been the issue. You yourself, and those like you, are the ones that established the place WoS has in history. Ironic, isn't it?"
This has never occurred to me before!
Had it not been for Steve's endless ranting - first in a textbook about aid climbing where he purported to be some sort of an expert in big wall climbing ethics - and for years and hundreds of posts subsequently here on McTopo, Wings of Steel probably would have faded into the obscurity it probably deserves. {wink}
But instead - it has been BECAUSE of, not in SPITE of, Steve Grossman's false allegations - that Wings of Steel has taken such a place in the history of big wall climbing and El Capitan! [Well, not just Steve, there were a few other meatheads, too] Had it not been for the Detractors, it would have faded into obscurity.
Irony can be very ironic, eh?
Pete Zabrok
Ontario, Canada
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
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The chalk scarred boulders of the valley indeed look terrible werner- that is undeniable. Climbers tend to overlook their own contribution to the degradation of the valleys natural resources. Also considering how much you got your feathers ruffled over a few trees being cut that will grow back it is more than hypocritical to simply disregard the permanent chalk scar's climbing has left in the valley
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Nov 24, 2014 - 03:05pm PT
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Why so jealous, Steve Grossman?
Maybe that's oversimplifying things, but from my lowly, outsider's perspective, that's what it looks like.
Yikes!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
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c wilmot
Yes you're right .
We the materially condition living entities in our modern world will find no escape ultimately from hypocrisy .......
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 24, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
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Yikes indeed, Anita! Absolutely hilarious pic!
Hey, how is your leg? I saw some totally gnarly pics on Ammon's injury thread, and I do hope you are past the worst of it now.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Nov 24, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
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Nov 24, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
The chalk scarred boulders of the valley indeed look terrible werner- that is undeniable. Climbers tend to overlook their own contribution to the degradation of the valleys natural resources. Also considering how much you got your feathers ruffled over a few trees being cut that will grow back it is more than hypocritical to simply disregard the permanent chalk scar's climbing has left in the valley
Haha.
I was I City of Rocks once and had a conversation with a Ranger on why they weren't allowing the replacement of bolts on some routes that clearly needed them.
" it degrades the historical views that were here when the Oregon/California cutoff went though here. We want to retain the historic aspect."
I pointed out that each bolt would degrade about 1 cubic inch of rock at the most, and they had just dynamited a boulder about the size of a van the day before so that RV's could get to the upper campsite.
My point was not well received.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 04:00pm PT
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Hi Richard.
Your post is very thoughtful and, as Pete pointed out, brings up some issues I had not considered.
Steve and Mimi are friends of my wife and I, but I truly find it baffling that he refuses to make any concessions or apologies, even in the face of what Ammon and Kate have verified as truth.
Because of this one simple observation - made before your post, but after Steve's - I find even more truth in your succinct observations.
You hit on all the points, and I have to just wonder what is going on with our friend (and one of my climbing heroes for his bold ascents), Steve Grossman.
Why can he not simply say:
"I was wrong, Richard and Mark. I am sorry."
???
Erik
Edit: Even the base rope-shitter apologized and came clean - WTF?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 24, 2014 - 04:25pm PT
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MisterE, thank you for your post and observations. Your most pressing point (imho) was: "... I have to just wonder what is going on with our friend (and one of my climbing heroes for his bold ascents), Steve Grossman."
I have heard that same question from so many people now, and I am honestly saddened that this is how it is playing out. A guy like Steve should be able to enter old age with an untainted legacy, given all that he HAS accomplished. I bear him NO ill will even now, seriously. But I will continue to vigorously respond to his defamation and wish that he would at least give it up.
And if he could ever get so far as a genuine and public apology, I am positive that a whole pile of people here on ST would cheer him on, myself included. It takes more guts to do that sort of thing than any climb ever done in human history, and I would applaud that more than any climb!
I'm not going to speculate on his motivations spanning decades. But at some point you admit you were wrong, you apologize, and everybody moves on. He would find me instantly ready to let the past be past. We all make mistakes, sometimes really boneheaded ones; it's the human condition. None of us live in an epistemically privileged position. So I would be happy to grant Steve his own boneheaded moments, as we all have them, and let it all go.
And there's nothing "gracious" or "magnanimous" about my saying that. I am serious about the human condition. I have needed charity myself many times, so it is my honor to offer it to another who is in need of it. But until then, please do urge your friend to "just stop it!" This really has gotten beyond ridiculous.
Edit: Sorry, I missed your name at first, Erik. I really appreciate all you had to say.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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When some people are backed into a corner, they just reflexively fight back to the death, as a basic survival mechanism. If you grow up in deadly circumstances- whether real or perceived, emotional or physical- that fighter autopilot reaction is good to have. The problem is, most real life circumstances aren't like that, so a significant amount of emotional deprogramming is required to create space for rational reactions to normal situations.
I do have compassion for the fact that people with emotional scars of this type have a huge and terrifying obstacle to overcome, to get to a place where reason-driven rather than emotion-driven actions are possible. Most of us don't consciously consider how hard it is. So hard that it makes the most grim routes on El Cap seem easy in comparison, and may in fact have led to their creation.
That said, I'm sure many people on this forum, myself definitely included, have experienced some sort of trauma that is deep enough to create deeply ingrained auto-pilot reactions that may have served us at some point, but hurt us now. It takes a lot of effort to get over this stuff. And these myriad weaknesses form a common thread, nay, a web between us, something we can all recognize in ourselves and in others. At some point we just accept it and laugh it off and try our best to get over it, knowing that whenever we point fingers at others we truly are pointing at ourselves.
Except for the odd Canadian, Euro, Asiatic, Kiwi, Australian or islander, we are all Stupid Americans.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Nov 24, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
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I keep reading this thread for the pure entertainment value it offers. Like me, anybody who was actually around the Valley at the time is now an old fossilized toothless tiger. So what I'm getting here is we have a bunch of old suburbanite white senior citizens who, inexplicably, are still messed up by this horrifically traumatizing event. Well, alrighty then.
Just for the record, I really do still felch dead people. Just sayin'.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Nov 24, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
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Awesome page, keep it up!
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