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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2014 - 10:50pm PT
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Chief: I live in bishop, but I wasn't in the real military, I was Ammo in the Air Force. Closest thing to combat I saw was building bombs for 12 hours a day when Clinton was trying to get the media to look somewhere besides at lewinsky.
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coolrockclimberguy69
climber
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Aug 13, 2014 - 08:40am PT
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Hey, don't kill yourself because WE would be so sad!
Even though we never call and never invite you to our barbecues or river trips. We never ask how you're doing and we kinda sorta forgot your birthday for the last five years. Oh yeah and sorry we forgot to check in on you when your dog died. oh and your dad too. Whoops!
But please don't kill yourself because that would make US so sad! We care about you, we swear, even though we don't act like it.
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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2014 - 08:54am PT
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Coolrockclimber guy gets it. . .unfortunately.
I sure have a lot of BookFace friends for someone that can never find a solid climbing partner. . .
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 09:15am PT
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My sister has been a therapist for many years. Works for the Army in Germany. She says that there are many approaches that deal with depression, none of them very trustworthy. Success is fleeting and impermanent.
I don't think that anyone has a clear handle on experiential states of being. The scientific and therapeutic industries define various "illnesses" into existence by fiat, abstractions, and consensus. Sure, there is some science and data there, but please note that no therapy has a very good track record when it comes to therapies. So what can they really know?
Take a look at the DSM-5. There are many many critics of the manual for mental disorders (disease definitions, treatment, contradictions, etc.), and yet that manual is used by the insurance companies to determine who gets paid for what in medicine.
Lots of speculation.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 13, 2014 - 09:50am PT
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I kind of figured that was what was going on with your comments Ron. Anger is also an natural part of grief. what if what worked for you did not work . though. could you last forever in that tortured existence? Some never find an answer or a solution.
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bixquite
Social climber
humboldt nation
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Aug 13, 2014 - 10:04am PT
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let my inspiration flow
in token lines suggesting rythm
that will not forsake me
till my tale is told and done
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 10:05am PT
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No, I hope to never understand because when I try it is pure misery. I get it from loss of loved ones and how it feels to mourn, but hopefully even then there would be a sense of purpose that arises wanting to honor the memory of loved ones and spread that love around.
Galway Kinnel:
“Wait
Wait, for now.
Distrust everything, if you have to.
But trust the hours. Haven't they
carried you everywhere, up to now?
Personal events will become interesting again.
Hair will become interesting.
Pain will become interesting.
Buds that open out of season will become lovely again.
Second-hand gloves will become lovely again,
their memories are what give them
the need for other hands. And the desolation
of lovers is the same: that enormous emptiness
carved out of such tiny beings as we are
asks to be filled; the need
for the new love is faithfulness to the old.
Wait.
Don't go too early.
You're tired. But everyone's tired.
But no one is tired enough.
Only wait a while and listen.
Music of hair,
Music of pain,
music of looms weaving all our loves again.
Be there to hear it, it will be the only time,
most of all to hear,
the flute of your whole existence,
rehearsed by the sorrows, play itself into total exhaustion.”
― Galway Kinnell
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 14, 2014 - 10:45am PT
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A couple of decades ago i was diagnosed with "depression" and given an ever changing host of pills. I was still depressed. It ended when i got mad at myself for dragging those i loved down the depression hole with me. I turned the depression into a fight. I beat it down as it had beaten me. The pills were tossed in the garbage.
Thats how i got over it- by being pissed. So in that im pissed about others who kill themselves stems from my very own experience. It isnt that im necessarily condemning them. Its my reaction and coping technique.
Ron, you either did not have depression, or you had a very mild case.
I say that because one of the defining characteristics is the INABILITY to generate emotions about what is going on around you. The depressed person *simply does not care*
It's like being pissed off because someone doesn't pick up after themselves when they have both arms amputated.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Aug 14, 2014 - 07:45pm PT
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Anyone else feel the same way? OR am I just an attention seeking whore???
 I feel like this whenever I write anything here on Supertopo.... That's anything on ST....
Any time I consider lamenting on about my whoa's I end up deleting it before it gets posted out of fear of sounding like that attention seeking whore you talk about....
To answer the question..... The answer is..... FOR VERY PERSONAL REASONS THAT SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED BEYOND THE END OF THE PERSON'S LIFE.... It get's us nowhere and is unallowable speculation... Which get's us nowhere...
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Aug 14, 2014 - 07:57pm PT
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Ken I do not mean to be argumentative so to add - deep Depression is far more than not caring, it's about a mental weight that is far beyond what people that are not "clinically depressed" can understand. & I mean no disrespect to those of you that have not fought deep depression but it is overwhelming & worsened by knowing what you can do, even seeing your product all around you & also knowing you can't (won't) do it now -- maybe forever? & it just cycles down from there - the weight just gets harder & harder to deal with. The failures add up & the success help but not for long.
The failures even small ones seem huge & the victories seem insignificant - vanishing .
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Aug 14, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
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I think our life here on Earth is special. We don't really know what came before or what comes after, and we can find solace in all kinds of beliefs. I like to think that our spirits get bored being disembodied and come to Earth as a novelty, a flesh vacation, for good and bad and everything in between. I want to get the most out of this experience.
I do think it is all empty and meaningless, and that there is nothing good or bad about that. We can decide what to do with that. Some people take it as a negative sign and get depressed and want to give up- what's the point? For me, it is the gateway to infinite possibility. Who cares that it's empty and meaningless, let's make of it whatever we will and enjoy it. In my book, that sure beats the alternatives.
It's hard to know where is the line between someone really dealing with an unsurmountable weight, and someone who just needs a kick in the ass or some patience and unconditional love to pull it together. In the end, only one person really knows, and it is up to them to choose what they will do with the hand they have been dealt.
When I was a kid, my mom had a magazine article framed and on the wall in the bathroom where she could read it every day. It said something like, "Every day we wake up, look self-hatred blearily in the eye, and say 'F*#k Off!'" It didn't mean much to me then, and it does not characterize where I am at in life now, but I've definitely trudged through some sh!t and can relate to that, and appreciate her daily struggle.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Good luck to everyone out there dealing with this stuff. Bottom line: it's an illusion, and I wish you strength, courage, patience, and self-love to see through it.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Aug 14, 2014 - 08:05pm PT
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^^^^^^^ I agree but real Depression has nothing to do with anything outside of the depressed person.
Be kind & live life to the fullest.
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thebravecowboy
climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
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Aug 14, 2014 - 08:56pm PT
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Skitch, I'll climb with you bro. Don't exit early. You can always climb, you have loved ones.
If you find yourself on the West Slope or the Front Range, or down S Ca this winter, let's tie in and climb some ez stuff.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 14, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
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Ken I do not mean to be argumentative so to add - deep Depression is far more than not caring, it's about a mental weight that is far beyond what people that are not "clinically depressed" can understand.
Frumy, I totally agree. My comment having to do with the emotion component was only in response to the statement that a depressed person could "get out of it" just by generating sufficient emotion to turn it around.
There is far more to it. But as you know, the concept of "just throwing a switch", and having the depression be gone is both wrong, and a dangerous misunderstanding.
The other groups that potentially can understand it, are families of depressed persons, and those who regularly treat them. But not all do.
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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Aug 15, 2014 - 12:46am PT
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I myself have known depression. Heck... I would start getting out of it and than wham, something else epically bad would happen. I had too many people die in a short period of time, too much negative stuff, etc.
I won't judge people for getting suicidal and... Yeah...
I will ask more people to learn about depression, how to help, learn to be more positive because really... Some of the bad stuff that floats around is so unnecessary and detrimental. I wonder how many smart ass comments, stuff done out of stupid fun has killed someone.
AFS
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Aug 15, 2014 - 06:34am PT
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I wonder how many smart ass comments, stuff done out of stupid fun has killed someone.
I won't get into the details, but roger that. Treat people as you would want to be treated. One never knows when when we can push someone over the edge.
edit: okay, I'll get into the details. When I was about 15 a friend and I went thru scuba class. At the checkout dive some dork we did not know pulled off my friends fin at about 30' as joke. I took it back and we all surfaced. I gave the dork a piece of my mind. Several hours later he was reported missing. Seems he went to the bottom and shut off his regulator and bouyancy compensator.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Aug 15, 2014 - 09:41am PT
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Do I understand?
Maybe a little.
Earl was a friend and workmate and I probably knew him as well as many.
His exit was shocking and sad and I thought he had more fight in him than to make that choice.
My youngest brother couldn't handle it and checked out the same way as Robin did.
Still haven't gotten over that one.
Depression is a black hole that plagues far more of us than we're prepared to admit and if you're sentient and at all sensitive, there's much in life to be depressed about.
Suicide is a choice for some.
When there's a terminal illness or horrific disability behind the choice, I get it.
When someone arrives there because they feel alone, unloved, worthless and without hope, that's a tragedy and their exit can feel like a kick in the nuts and the ultimate fvck you to the family and friends left behind.
There are no easy answers for this.
Personally, I think solid social anchors are vital in life so build them and maintain them.
Respect
PB
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