Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
|
Greg Barnes, what do you think will happen with 3rd pitch of The Salathe wall once the key piton falls out? I heard of people saying they can move it with their hand, but than I saw someone whip on it and it seemed solid to me when I clipped it. If it does fall out, will it be replaced with a bolt or someone will try to hammer in a piton? Just curious.
Also, do you know if bolts on the old Salathe Route (on Half Dome) have been replaced? I heard it was an obscure classic that is almost never done now because the bolts are super old(?).
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
|
some of the bolts aren't there...
on the old Salathe route on Half Dome...
are you interested in going up there with on old duffer to find out?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
|
A bad aspect of fixed pro in general is the tendency to look at its external appearance and assume it's good; it's a bad assumption over time. And in that respect, these days, fixed pins tend to get the hairy eyeball while bolts most often get a pass which isn't good given how many bad bolts there likely are out there at this point. But what's often forgotten in a discussion like this is the fact that both fixed pins and bolts both need to be maintained over the long haul. Both need to be checked and replaced at some frequency over a timespan of decades (or possibly just reset in the case of pins). My experience was roughly 25% of the pins I checked were bad and needed to be replaced or reset whereas close to 80% of the 5pcs were corroded spinners (one broke from just the weight of the wrench as I adjusted my leash). The newer bolts from the 90s were the worst by far whereas pins from the 70s were regularly still truck. Again YMMV.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2014 - 02:52pm PT
|
Thats interesting stuff. To be clear, you are talking about a heavily salted sea cliff environment? No, rather an often quite wet Columbia River Gorge.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
|
Hard to say really, maybe 10% were badly downward-angled placements with silicone sealant and multiple washers attempting to compensate, but the odd thing was that the most corroded bolts were placed in the 90s with bolts from the 70s and 80s still bad, but less so. I can only guess some issue with the alloys of those later bolts.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
|
Vitaliy, not sure on SW face of Half Dome, Doug Hemken and Andy Davis were going to work on it a few years back, but I'm not sure what they did (if anything) because they were having trouble figuring out which bolts were original and which were added, and they didn't want to mistakenly replace a non-original bolt.
As far as particular key pitons, it will be a case by case issue…certainly some pitons are absolutely essential and will need to be replaced one way (piton) or another (bolt). Another good example is the pin on Hoodwink in Tuolumne.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2014 - 04:16pm PT
|
are you interested in going up there with on old duffer to find out?
I would be interested in going there to climb the route and replacing whatever bolts are crap. As I understand it is hazy which bolts were put in on the FA vs after (on the FFA?). FA also hammered in pitons to built belay anchors and protect the climb. Common sense should be used regarding which bolts to replace vs chop to preserve the rock and keep the climbing on the route clean. With modern gear, the climb should protect reasonably well to not warrant an X rating I suppose, as long as the belay anchors are solid? Ed, if you want to go there this summer or fall let me know. We can than draw an updated topo with new/old belay stations and modern required rack included.
|
|
ruppell
climber
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
|
Greg,
Hoodwink isn't the best example. There's a bomber grey alien placement within a few feet. If that pin goes it should just stay gone IMO.
|
|
labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2014 - 07:01pm PT
|
"Thailand maybe. I recall they had serious problems much to do with electrolysis corrosion. I wonder what the solution was in the end? Glue ins?"
Yes. Glue ins for Thailand
|
|
thebravecowboy
climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2014 - 07:03pm PT
|
I personally prefer drilled angle pins in my home environs to bolts, fwiw. Shitty pins, though, SUCK! And i would prefer to see these replaced with better bolts (except on most pure aid routes).
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2014 - 07:10pm PT
|
Titanium glueins for Thailand, the stainless glueins did no better than stainless mechanical bolts.
I know that placement ruppel, it is nowhere near as good as that piton.
|
|
Big Joe
Trad climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Apr 23, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
|
Recently in Eldorado Canyon State Park the local climbing organization ACE had a two applications for the community to vote on removal of pins on two existing routes that could easily and safely be supplemented with natural gear. Both applications lost. It's interesting to read the comments from the votes.
Pin removal #1 application and votes.
Pin removal #2 application and votes.
|
|
feynman
Trad climber
chossberta
|
|
|
Apr 23, 2014 - 11:13pm PT
|
Due to the low frequency of climbers in my neck of limestone chose, I've tended to favor (solid) blades over bolts. Most of the local climbs see one or two ascents every 20 years, so the chances are about 50-50 that were they bolts, every subsequent climbing party would need to bring a full bolt kit and epoxy / rock dust for each route rather than just a hammer and a couple of pins.
To be honest though, even on routes I know will be popular, I have a really hard time with the visuals and vibe change caused by bolts. My solution is to spend much more time after a quality ascent thinking through how to keep the fixed / clean gear placements in harmony with the route's "vibe". In general, to me, any exclusive policy not cognizant of local contexts (and chemistry) is stupid.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2014 - 12:50am PT
|
Recently in Eldorado Canyon State Park the local climbing organization ACE had a two applications for the community to vote on removal of pins on two existing routes that could easily and safely be supplemented with natural gear. Both applications lost. It's interesting to read the comments from the votes.
Pin removal #1 application and votes.
Pin removal #2 application and votes.
Wow, interesting indeed. I'm amazed at the plurality of no votes and the reasons. It seems evident from the photos that neither pin offers protection that can't be obtained from modern gear, and I would have thought that a "true love for the canyon" would motivate, as much as possible, returning the canyon climbs to their natural states.
As an old fogey, I'm naturally touched at the inclination to "preserve history," but think that notes in guidebooks, magazine articles, and posts on Supertopo are a more appropriate place for that. And really, what "history," is, in fact, "preserved" by the presence of a pin placed at an unknown (and possibly not at all historical) time by an unknown climber?
Some of the other reasons recorded make even less sense to me. Pins should be left in place as educational aids to help trad leaders learn to "deal" with fixed pins? The sad fact is that without a hammer, no one can judge how good a fixed pin is, and anyone who thinks they are or will become "proficient" at "judging the integrity" of fixed pins is fooling themselves at least half the time. There is absolutely nothing to be learned by having fixed pins in place.
Pins should be left in place to help with route-finding? Is route-finding suddenly not part of trad climbing any more? And in Eldo, of all places, where the routes can be seen as dotted lines of chalked handholds from across the canyon, are steel signposts really needed as well?
Some people even seem to be offering an argument for the presence of fixed pins as a source of adventure (presumably by virtue of the pins' unreliability). If you think about it, this implies that the climb itself is an insufficient source of adventure and so unreliable steel gear must be driven into cracks and left there for years in order to properly up the ante.
The rest of this thread addresses the genuinely thorny issues surrounding fixed pins whose presence is deemed essential for protection and whether, given the necessity of something, that bolts wouldn't be a better solution. But there is no apparent protection reason for the Eldorado fixed pins in the link, and the arguments for keeping them in place anyway are, to me at least, bizarre.
It is ironic that people like me, who actually might have placed some of those historic pitons, find themselves advocating for their removal, while those who have no historical "investment" in preserving the relics seem to want to keep them around.
|
|
Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2014 - 02:15am PT
|
Vitaliy and/or Ed, I'd go up that route in a heartbeat to replace the bolts. Lets make it happen. Besides, I want a closer look at On the Edge, it's on the radar.
As for your bolt issue, this is the approach I've gone with.
I don't climb for other people. Therefore I'm not into manufacturing "designer routes". If I didn't need the bolt or used some marginal gear for protection, then that's what I leave behind. Unless I plan on repeating the route sometime myself and don't want to trust that crap again. In that case I'd replace the KB's with bolts if it suited myself. However, here's where I depart from other peoples thinking.
A lot of times I don't place a bolt or use something like a shitty KB for pro because I'm on a time restraint or I'm just too lazy to stop and drill a bolt and comfortable with climbing without one. There's a lot of reasons why I might choose not to place fixed gear or leave fixed gear that won't last long. But I know it's not out of the question for someone who might repeat the route in the future to have a different opinion about the gear. So my thought on the subject is; you let the rock dictate the protection. Plain and simple. If you can repeat the route ground up like I did, find a stance and hand drill a bolt, go for it if you think you really need it. If you can't find a stable stance and it's too bold for you, come back later when you're better prepared. Just don't drop a rope down and retro bolt something just because it's too stiff for you. As for your situation with the KB's. If you think you're going to repeat the route sometime in the future and would rather have a bolt than trust that blade again, then pop in a bolt. Otherwise, it's not your problem.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2014 - 08:53am PT
|
Plain and simple. If you can repeat the route ground up like I did, find a stance and hand drill a bolt, go for it if you think you really need it. If you can't find a stable stance and it's too bold for you, come back later when you're better prepared.
Sala, are you a stance only climber? Where do you climb? Stance is my game.
|
|
feynman
Trad climber
chossberta
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
|
Werner, those survey results are interesting, especially in relation to your comment that some of the FA's think differently than the newer climbers not part of the original history.
I guess pins (even new ones) put off an historical aura bolts (even old ones) don't. Some things in human nature aren't purely rational.
Personally, I'm rather comfortable with the irrational side of my nature and have learned not to sweat the logical contradictions associated with some of my aesthetics.
|
|
labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
|
Headed a little off topic here.
Charlie D's comments on the Route Beta for Deception at Lovers Leap.
"BTW the Direct (5.8/5.9) now has a fixed pin at the crux. Protection was tricky but solid, it now has a bomber piton for those more dubious about thin pro. I have no idea who placed it but found it there last year. There's also a new fixed ring angle on the last pitch alternative (out right) up from Bushy Ledge on the East Wall."
I was hoping to take a look at the pin on Deception Direct on Saturday but now the weather is crapping out. Depending on where the pin is placed it could really mess up this crack. The rock is a bit thin and would just break out.
Anybody know who placed this pin? It should not be....
Not sure about the second added pin on East Wall.
Erik
|
|
Impaler
Social climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2014 - 05:45pm PT
|
This is a pretty good topic to discuss. I personally have an opinion about several pitches in the valley that could be improved with placing a bolt or moving some belays that aren't in very good spots.
1. 3rd pitch of Salathe. I've whiped on the mank there and so far it holds, but it's ugly and new stoppers keep getting added there over the years (as well as old ones rotting away). That should really be replaced with a bolt or two. It doesn't change the character of aid climbing since either way you clip fixed gear, however ugly rotten slings and stoppers with broken cables are just garbage.
2. Last pitch of Astroman needs a bolt to replace the mank copperheads protecting a very dangerous spot. Nobody aids that route any more anyway.
3. A bit more controversial and tangential to the OP, but would be a good improvement to the route: some belays on the Salathe wall could be moved to a natural ledge that is very close. For example, pitch 15 hanging belay is 8 feet above an awesome ledge. Pitch 16 has a bolted hanging belay in the middle of it that appears to serve no purpose and should be removed. Pitch 5 has two lines of bolts: the one used currently and the old 1/4-inchers to the left that are probably from the FA. Pitch 20 belay (top of the Spire) is a bunch of fixed junk equalized with slings. If we are going to have fixed gear there, might as well put in two bolts. The great roof on the nose has two bolted belays one right next to the other. Lower one should be removed.
Any thoughts on this? I'd be happy to do the work, but I feel that a community agreement needs to be reached first.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!