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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 21, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
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Hey, I have been doing some reading and thinking about placement of bolts vs pitons. Wanted to see what other people think, and why...please comment.
I was putting up a FA and found myself in a seam where only pro I could put in was a knifeblade. I used a few of those on the pitch and left them fixed so if someone wants to repeat the route they do not have to bring a rack of pitons and a hammer. But since pitons are time bombs anyway, would it be wise to rap down after completing the pitch and replace them with a bolt?
In general I see a lot of pins that are getting older and much less bomber than they were when they were placed. And wondering if at some point those should be replaced with a bolt that would serve a longer term. Or is it wrong to replace them with a bolt but ok to hammer in another pin?
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
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If you put up the route you are the one who can make the call based on your judgement of what's best for the rock, likelihood of repeats, concern for safety, etc.
Lots of factors.
But if ur gonna sink a bristler- do it before you tell the Internet!!!
Or you are trolling for office bound trad climbers here on this fine monday morning V, can't tell yet...
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:15pm PT
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Tricky question.
I'd say use a bolt. They suck only marginally less than fixed pins.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:15pm PT
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I am guilty of placing pins on FAs when maybe a bolt would be more appropriate. The pins are great for the on sight lead for the FA party because they go in quick. Future parties will probably not be bringing a hammer, so they would not be able to test the pins. I like your idea of going back and replacing the pins with bolts for critical locations. An exception would be if the pin is located somewhat close to bomber gear below it, such that if it failed, the fall distance would not be that much greater or land you on a ledge. If the pin is near a seep or damp area then for sure replace with bolt after FA because it will rot out quickly if left in place.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
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V... Its up to you.
IMHO.... a blade in a seam, is a time bomb, a few winters and vola, you can remove it with your hand.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
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Pins are good for protection (or hanging off of) while you place a proper bolt
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:26pm PT
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A bolt will better mitigate the possibility of injury as well as preserve the original crack over the long term.
My experience is that such well placed loner bolts evoke more love than hate from the parties who follow.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Sonora
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
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Definitely a bolt. It is far better for the long-term health of your route.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
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i would place a bolt. over the long haul, a well-placed bolt will be lower impact than a pin that is periodically removed and replaced. removing/replacing the pins will eventually give you a hold and quite possibly change the route. the bolthole can be more easily filled, if need be.
fix pins, and you need to recommend a hammer on the gear list for future parties. the more folks carrying hammers, the greater the chance of other bad things happening.
the old robbins mantra, natural pro, pins, bolts in descending order of preference, was a reasonable guideline in the early 1960s. but the preference for pins over bolts then had far less to due with ecological concerns and more with the fact that bolts could be placed anywhere, thus freeing climbers from the need to follow natural lines.
with the rise of clean climbing, the rule sometimes because used as a means of limiting damage to the rock. but fifty years later, it's pretty clear that in many if not most cases, where one faces a choice between a pin and a bolt, a bolt may well represent a "cleaner" choice in terms of sustainability.
the main argument for fixed pins now is a narrowly historic one, namely that the guidelines of the late fifties / early sixties for yosemite, ought to be preserved in aspic. or the related argument, that pitoncraft is a crucial part of climbing heritage and ought to be a requisite skill for future generations.
lots of folks here on st are comfortable with those arguments. but i wouldn't let that override what seems to be your own judgment here. if it's the kind of route likely to get lots of repeats, i'd replaced the KBs with good bolts. if it's an obscurity, i wouldn't worry about it.
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ablegabel
Trad climber
Dublin,Ca.
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
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Hi Vitaliy,
If you think your route is good, worth doing and you plan to tell people about it, then I would definitely replace the pins with bolts.
If the route isn't that good, not worth repeating, far from the road, and you don't plan on sending people out on it, then maybe it's not worth bashing more bolts into.
In the end, it's your route. You get to decide. But that being said, is it a significant contribution to the climbing in that area? Is the climb worth bolting? How would you feel if some one got hurt on your route because one of the pins pulled on a fall? Would just a bolt or two make it safe enough instead of replacing all the pins with bolts? Will the old pin placements take RP's now? Is it likely that anybody is going to do this route. Did you do this route for you, for the climbing community, or just to claim doing an other route?
These are the questions I ask myself when trying to make these decisions. No easy answers.
Good job on your new route, on going ground up and for putting some thought into what's going to make it right.
 Eric Gabel
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
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The Law of FA thread is too long. Since my question is pretty specific I think starting a new thread is fine.
I think everyone has slightly different reasons for climbing, path they take (sport, trad, bouldering, ice, aid, etc) and beliefs about how routes should be put up, and that's fine. My personal reasons I guess is to challenge self, damage the rock less, BUT hopefully put up a route that others would enjoy doing. Which would involve adding bolts or replacing junk gear with bolts if it is reasonable and would help someone enjoy the route more.
The gray territory is climbs with old pins that others say could be moved around by hand. Seems like they were bomber before but with use/time became much less safe for people who are about to take falls on them. Seems wise to replace them with a bolt that would serve more generations(damage rock less in a long run), but than in the same time I am sure people have different views about that. Maybe it just depends route to route, and if it is possible to replace the pin with another pin of slightly larger size, or hopefully a clean placement.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 21, 2014 - 01:59pm PT
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Another alternative. If it is not a route you would recommend, go back and remove all evidence anyone was ever there.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 21, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
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And if u do place a bolt do it properly- make sure that there is always a QuickDraw permanently attached to it.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Apr 21, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
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So are you doing a first ascent or are you making a route for others to do?
Top down or ground up?
A bolt is a permanent fixture, a pin in a crack is NOT. Abandon like a stuck nut or friend - yes. Fixed, more a ?.
It the pin is in a straight in crack or good vertical corner you could place, clean, and replace the pin, clean-- and make a brass nut placement thereby creating a clean placement.
I personally believe you should stick clean pieces in always. Climbing demands a rack carried.
I know others who feel an eight bolt route with two clean pieces should just have ten bolts. I do not subscribe to that- what do you believe? (I also know a hundred climbers who thing RP/HB brass nuts are not clean pro so there.
I climb for my ascent.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Apr 21, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
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Fixed blades=Scarey=No.
Fixed arrows,angles etc=No problem.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Apr 21, 2014 - 02:49pm PT
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(I also know a hundred climbers who thing RP/HB brass nuts are not clean pro so there.
Troll or just lots of acquaintances who don't understand what clean pro is?
- - - -
If it's a freeclimb, maybe no pin or bolt and list it as an "r" pitch?
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Apr 21, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
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Fixed arrows,angles etc=No problem.
Except most LA or angle placements can be made with modern clean gear.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 21, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
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I agree with Eric's line of thought.
Also, use stainless steel bolts and hangers, otherwise you are also creating a maintenance problem like a fixed pin.
They are fairly cheap these days.
Don't go for "plated". A few weeks ago we climbed a route done in 2008 with plated bolts and hangers and they were already rusting pretty bad.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 21, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
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The gray territory is climbs with old pins that others say could be moved around by hand. Seems like they were bomber before but with use/time became much less safe for people who are about to take falls on them. Seems wise to replace them with a bolt that would serve more generations(damage rock less in a long run), but than in the same time I am sure people have different views about that. Maybe it just depends route to route, and if it is possible to replace the pin with another pin of slightly larger size, or hopefully a clean placement.
This is the real question we should be discussing imho. How many times can you replace the pin until you get a decent placement. We shouldn't be creating placements like this. It's bullshit imo. It's the same as chipping a hold or enhancing a hook edge. Sure a bolt damages the rock too, but it can be replaced time and time again, and if you use the right hardware you can even re-use the same hole!
It the pin is in a straight in crack or good vertical corner you could place, clean, and replace the pin, clean-- and make a brass nut placement thereby creating a clean placement.
So what you're saying is you'd rather damage the crack until the point where you don't have to anymore and from there on it's only clean protection. Kinda hypocritical don't you think?
I personally believe you should stick clean pieces in always. Climbing demands a rack carried.
Even if that means damaging the rock to get to the point where it accepts gear? Should i get a chisel and start manufacturing trad placements at my local sport crag?
V with your current dilemma i think you should set the bolt for a pin precedent. It'll last longer and less damage to the rock.
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