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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Ok that was a bit cold.
But I'm still waiting for some useful data on where my DAs have been failing.
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PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
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Wasn't meant to be Ron, unless you are feeling...
Here...
"DA's on the several pitches of PS and SS and other routes that weren't his (Zenayata Entrada and Deep Voodoo are two quick examples that comes to mind...and I replaced them accordingly with 1/2" & 3/8" x 3" SS Five Part Sleeve RAWL/MET HGRS in 00') were compromised from weather, over usage and wanna be climbers hammer usage/pounding ignorance." (with a little EDIT)
Oh, I must not forget the five DA's that "Wiggled" out in my hand on the blank wall at the base of the "Corner Route" that had spider webs and other debris in them due to their lack of usage. I will not state the cause either as you will most assuridly write that it's not at all true. So, not wasting my time....
Oh...
very similiar to the tool that I was taught and used quite extensively during my days....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Was refering to the sarcasm, but what we don't know about each other could fill volumes. While my classmates were finishing HS I already had a full time job and had a one room walk up between Avenue A and First, had taken a blade through the wrist severing tendons and had seen a guy shot in the neck, fatal.
People are different. Some can handle wet work but are traumatized by rendering first aid. A few even thrive on violence.
Your condescension could well be misplaced.
Once again. Where exactly have my DAs been failing ?(abuse by others is obviously not my doing)
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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PDHman,
I do not condone adding bolts to others routes. However, I did so in IC when only one bolt was used as an anchor. There were many routes back in the early 80's like that there. An acquintance who was a hell of a guy died when the one anchor bolt failed on the Cat wall. Furthermore, if I felt like it was the right thing to do, yes, I would beef up an anchor. This is not a likely thing to have to do on a trade route. When I did trade routes in Zions, that was in the 80's and at that time they were not all "trade" routes. But no, I also never felt the need. On the other hand if I did feel the need, I aint gonna be callin you or anyone else on a cell to find out.
My main point is that many climbers feel that it is someone elses responsibility to make sure that fixed anchors are safe. When you are up there, only you can make that call.
On a side note a bolt I placed in Arkansas over 13 years ago failed when the rock around the bolt exploded. While I felt bad, I in no way feel it was my responsibility to make a trip there and police bolts I placed. In fact, if present climbers in Arkansas felt they needed another bolt I dont really give a sh#t. I would rather see that than read about accidents. Certainly not everyone feels that way and I think you need to look at it case by case
BTW, I aint pickin on you, I just dont think your points came across to well...
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PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
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While my friends were finishing HS, I was paid by your tax money to visit foriegn lands and terminate some of their inabitants! With something similiar to the one pictured above...
PS Pitches 3,5,6 & 8 due to natural errosion...SS Pitches 2,3 & 7 (HEADWALL) also due to natural errosion or over drilled holes?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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BTW, if you think any bolts you place will last 50 plus years in terms of a secure placement, you are not dealing in reality. That in no way negates any service you may have done by fixing mank.
The bolt I know that failed in Ark was 3/8 x 3 1/2 5 piece in bomber sandstone that decided that erosion under the surface was going to help it come out of there....
courtesy of someone else....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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And THAT would be an example.
C'mon PD, lets have a quality discussion. This flopping fish routine makes it difficult.
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PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
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Looks to me like the bolt was placed in a truly illogical location. It is very evident by your pic, that no matter what you put in this location, would have pulled due to the potential moisture that runs over it and pools? Look at all that lichen in that dish....hmmmm!
Edit...
"On a side note a bolt I placed in Arkansas over 13 years ago failed when the rock around the bolt exploded. While I felt bad, I in no way feel it was my responsibility to make a trip there and police bolts I placed. In fact, if present climbers in Arkansas felt they needed another bolt I dont really give a sh#t. I would rather see that than read about accidents. Certainly not everyone feels that way and I think you need to look at it case by case"
Unfortunately, yours is a very atypical attitude for many of the FAer egos that abound out here in the land of egos. I couldn't agree with you more! When working with the ASCA, I can't commend Greg Barnes enough for some of the sheeet he must put up with in order to do good. There are times when I have been with him on certain projects and some on my own, that I wish I had my old tool back....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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If Gary was logical he probably wouldn't be climbing on crumbly sandstone.
Believe me. I know.
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PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
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So Ron, now you are gonna tell me that climbing on the Fisher's or routes like AT, is illogical? What does logic have to do with over coming a little adversity and challenge? And, for that matter, logic has no place what-so-ever in any aid climbing endeavor. It is like telling someone that it is useless to eat ice cream cause it's gonna melt?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Well PDHman, it is actually pretty damn steep (no pooling) but there is water to be sure. It is Arkansas. My point is that at least on that sandstone there can be some funny stuff going on subsurface. My guess is that in Navaho, on a high use wall, regular maintenance may be required no matter how good of placement you may have.
Does logical climbing = the Angels landing trail? It is for shore the easest way to the top...Wish they had better hairpins though, you could crater if you fell off...
F&&& if I know...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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PD, I suggest that you always take me seriously.
Either that or your meds.
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PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
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Ark...where 100% humdity prevails and will compromise the rock 1,000,000,000,000,000 quicker than anything located in the Desert of the Southwest, where the humidity norm is 10%!
Not a good example at all!
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WBraun
climber
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Pretty interesting discussion here.
Sorry for interrupting, carry on ........
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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PDH, you got a point. However, this rock in general seems far superior in terms of strength than Navaho, Entrada and most Wingate.
Now what about those rivets? that must be a different thread...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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WTF is a humidity norm?
Oh yeah, nothing in the desert EVER gets soaked.
This is crazy. MUST be a troll.
Why am I here when I've got a good flick to watch.
Catcha later!
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PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
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Desert "Wall" FAer's are a breed beyond logic, especially when the type sandstone is Entrada or softer. When FAing, I believe that research and deep thought must be done prior to even leaving the ground. Type of anchors and bolting techniques must be beyond the simple drill and hammer. It requires a conscientious plan beyond that which is found on any granite line. And, I do believe that the FAer has some degree of responsibilty to the maintenance and upkeep of their routes when capable, especailly true if the route becomes a "Classic" and becomes a freeway of many that are ignorant to the proper techniques that are required for quality and respectful ascent on this very fragile rock. It must be done. And if the FAer is incapable, they should promote and recruit individuals with the experience and knowledge to do so. That, will most assuridly make a little bit of certainty that the route quality will last for many to come and enjoy into the future!
Now, this philosophy can be applied to the aspect of rivets on any route, regardless of location.
RON:"WTF is a humidity norm?
Oh yeah, nothiing in the desert EVER gets soaked."
Yeah it does, maybe 30-40 days out of the year! Not 250+ days out of the year Ron! Have you ever been east of the Virgin River where in places like AR, GA, SC, NC, WV, TN, VA etc., you will have nothing but milk after you put your hands into the chalk bag from the months of MAR-NOV after 10am when the humidity levels reach 100% for up to 15 hours!
Don't even start to compare the Southeast with the Southwest in terms of mean humidity avgs. Without a doubt, the Southeast wins that discussion!
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Jumping back in totally without invitation, but there is a good point to be made on the subject of perpetually-besotted SE sandstone being a different critter from the desert rock. There's a reason why we're out pulling on the stuff as soon as the lichen dries out, while in the desert you have to wait 24 hours or more or you tear the route to shreds. Heck, there's a reason why so much of our stuff has moss and lichen on it. Put some of that desert rock in your back yard in AL for a couple of years, and it will be just about right for spreading on a baseball diamond.
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Chairman Meow
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Wow, this pissing match is intense. This thread is TOTALLY COVERED IN URINE!!! It reaks like an overused belay ledge in here...
None-the-less, I have been thinking about the whole drilled angle thing for a while. I'm more of a weekend warrior type, certainly no hard man with confirmed kills, but I've done many of the routes mentioned for what it's worth.
I have never seen a drilled angle fail. Now, there are lots of things I've never seen, like a death rattle for example, but one thing I have seen is a failed expansion bolt. I've seen lots of them, especially in soft rock. My suspicion is that a brand new expansion bolt is better than a DA, and that an old, manky, spinning expansion bolt is worse than a DA. DAs do seem to last a long time, maybe because they can't spin loose, I don't know. On the other hand, DAs don't seem as well suited to upward or outward loading. In the end, both work well for a while then have to be replaced. Rock quality, bolt redundancy, and route maintainence are all more important than the choice of hardware. Climbers like Ron that care about the longevity of their routes and dedicate their time, effort, and money to keep them viable are doing the community a huge favor, whether you like their gear choices or not.
Personally, I will gladly clip well placed bolts of either variety, thank the climbers that put them there for me, and secretly curse them for not placing more.
 CM
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Ugh. DA's always make me hate life. Maybe I just need more time in the saddle, but I know a fair bit about scoping out a bolt and evaluating its level of fvckness, while I look at a DA and go "well, it looks good, it doesn't wiggle, and it's not that rusty, who knows?" Bolts give you some warning, or at least give the guy before you some warning. DA's pretty much just go.
Also, I've definitely run into a lot of DA's that people put on top of stuff or on ledges or whatever in full vertical positions. OK, it's bomber for the FA and for a little while after that because you pretty much can't load it in the wrong direction, but why do people think non-stainless hardware sitting in a custom drilled perma-puddle is a good idea? I guess in the desert the theory is that the water evaporates pretty fast, but these suckers still seem to rust a lot faster than anything out there.
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