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clustiere
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 30, 2006 - 06:23pm PT
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Seems like parts of this discussion belong in the forum, rather than in route beta… But… we ARE discussing the route, after all…
So then…
Who decides which routes get changed and which routes are left in their original state (or close to their original state)? How long before all routes become easy bait? And then what are we left with? Lots of easy bait? No history of what was? Do the FAists have any say… or is this all up to the guidebook authors… or those willing to ‘replace’ fixed hardware?
Preservation?
How many new routes have yet to be sent? How many viable lines are left? Yeah, there’s plenty of the fresh outside of the Valley… but we’re talking Valley routes here.
Cut our runners halfway? Is that the future of dicey climbing… because the real ‘dice’ are gone? What happened to “Roll the Bones”? Yeah, we’ll make more crowds, and then ‘adjust’ the routes so that the crowds are ‘dispersed’… Modify the routes to suit the crowds, rather than educate the crowds to send the original lines? Where then, is the ‘flavor’ intended by those who took the time, energy, and motivation to seek out a new line, gear up, and climb what was never climbed before? Are these routes that have recently been ‘retro-bolted' now lost forever?
And… why does this whole bolt/rivet replacement stuff always come down to just ‘rivet ladders’ in the discussions around here? What about the rivets that connect sections of dicey climbing – the single rivet that connects a string of spicy hook moves, the two rivets that connect a pair of beautiful head seems, the rivet that connects a series of rotten beak seems…? Does a newly added 3/8” bolt (or several) not drastically alter the difficulty of technical climbing in such scenarios?
Why does our society have to reduce everything to suit the lowest common denominator? Is this the future of Yosemite wall climbing? Where will it all end? What will we be left with?
minerals
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clustiere
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2006 - 06:26pm PT
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Hey people got smarter and made bigger stronger rivets not the old weaker ones. Natural evolution of any tool. Yo, I don't mow my lawn with that swinging stick with a blade on the end I use my kick ass toro lawn mower. Speaking of which I gotta go do that. We used to use goldline but we now use kernmantle ropes. Stubborness and reactivity are what most of these rebolters are running into not intelligence and rational process. Does an old rivet add some character to a route and historical sence of place sure, but the valley routes are becomming standardized or brought to equalibrium as Mac states in his guide. This is an enevitable process as valley climbing becomes more and more popular. Go to angel wings if you want to put up a scary route that wont get traffic enough to need updated gear for 20 years. You have ultimately no power in this issue aws the masses are headed towards using the best equipment possible and if your gonna drill a hole fill it with a good strong fat piece of metal eh. Thats how I see it anyway, could be wrong who knows?
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorful colorado(ed)
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Jun 30, 2006 - 06:30pm PT
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evolve or die...
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handsome B
Gym climber
Saskatoon, Saskatchawan
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Jun 30, 2006 - 06:32pm PT
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"Cut our runners halfway? Is that the future of dicey climbing… because the real ‘dice’ are gone?"
Ask Bachar about dice, I think him and whats-his-name put up some new route in Tuolumne. Sh#t, what's it called? The Bachar-something something. . .
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Jun 30, 2006 - 07:30pm PT
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" Hey people got smarter and made bigger stronger rivets not the old weaker ones. Natural evolution of any tool. Yo, I don't mow my lawn with that swinging stick with a blade on the end I use my kick ass toro lawn mower. Speaking of which I gotta go do that. We used to use goldline but we now use kernmantle ropes " -
Certainly for belay bolts and protection bolts I agree - 1/4" bolts are crap. We shouldn't have used them in the first place, except our drills were even worse! I remember sharpening my Forrest steel drill bits on a wheel in camp every night. And maybe getting one 1/4" hole before they needed sharpening again the next day. Modern carbide bits make drilling a 3/8" by hand about the same as the old 1/4" Rawls Drives with a steel bit. For aid ladders perhaps 1/4" Rawl Drives are still ok, but if someone replaces them with 3/8" bolts, I'll pour them a glass of good wine in thanks!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Opposing socio climbatic forces are at work.(insert trademark logo thingy here)
Neo rebolters form the ethic of safe because we think of others.
Neo purists form the ethic of adventure because we think of others.
Neither is purely right or wrong and like Supreme Court decisions and stare decisis the pendulum of jurisprudence will swing back and forth.
Your post reflects the inherent struggle those of us have that actually think outside of our anus.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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As our resources are utilized by burgeoning numbers there is one question that will only become that much more compelling; which is more important to preserve, the routes viability or the route's difficulty?
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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I have a classic old Italian bike I rescued from a junk pile. Bike frames don't last forever, but barring a wreck or being a pretty intense rider and only riding one bike, they should last you a lifetime or more. However, there are certain things on the bike that are wear items, or "consumables," like chains, tires, gears, bearings, etc... You run them for a while, and when they're done for, you replace them. Leaving them too long just screws up the performance of the bike and robs you of what you could be getting out of the frame, which is the heart and soul of the bike.
The rock is the heart and soul of the route. Fixed gear is a consumable. When it goes, we have to replace it. It's easy to make a big deal about it, because it does affect the experience at the margin, just like new tires feel a little different on my bike. However, getting worked up about the details of it often gets us away from the reality that we're there to climb the rock, not the gear. I'm not saying put a fatty with a hanger in every time you see a manky rivet any more than I'm saying I should replace my classic bike's tires with kevlar carbon uberskins, but I'm also saying that it don't make that durned much difference. Most of this debate is about gear (or holes) that crosses blank rock. If replacing it with bomber bolts is all it takes to dumb down a route, then the route 'twern't that smart to begin with.
Of course it's not always quite that simple, and we all know why, but that's all I've got for now.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I like your "twern't" comment but route durability depends on more than just fixed gear specially since we're talking about AID routes.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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We have these debates in Canada also. A lot is very subjective and situational.
Most seem to pay lip service, at least, to the principle that if you want to add or remove fixed anchors to a route, or otherwise change its nature (e.g. substituting 3/8" compression bolts for rivets), you should first announce your intentions to the climbing community. It is also considered good manners to inform those who made the first ascent, if reasonably practicable, and seek their thoughts. The idea is that there should be some sort of community consensus about what is planned, at least in situations where anyone might be concerned.
That said, far too much bolt-adding and bolt-removal goes on in the name of "safety", "ethics", and other slippery values. The underlying motive often relates to insecure adolescent male territorial behaviour.
The real issues seem to be that climbers need to learn to govern themselves in a way that doesn't invite others to interfere, and environmental impacts. Both those perceived by the outside world, and those of concern to our own community. There are limited climbing resources, which we have to cherish.
There are 1/4" stainless expansion bolts, which are much better than the old Rawl compression bolts. They work well for bolt ladders, alpine routes, and emergency descents. In sound rock, they're probably quite dependable.
Now, how about a riveting update?
Anders
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Right, I knew when I said "climb the rock and not the gear" people would take that to be a free climbing-centric idea, but I had aid in mind. My point is that the ethics debates don't get all crazy about fixed heads or fixed pins, or for that matter fixed nuts or cams. That kind of stuff applies to ascending where there are features to be used. Things only get nuclear about rivets and bolts (and the occasional bathook ladder), which the FA either used to cross blank rock (see earlier comment) or as pro. I see some room for argument in the latter case, though not too many FA's drilled explicitly for pro and wanted the result to be pretty good but not bomber. There are also plenty of times when people drilled unecessarily, or later chicken bolts get added, but that's not where I see the crazy debates go on. Chicken bolts get chopped unless the FA says leave them or it's such a trade route they're just going to reappear, and FA bolts pretty much get left unless the whole route was in bad style.
I actually think what I'm saying here doesn't apply much to free climbing, as the bolt wars there don't have to do with whether the route goes or not. Unless the FA is lying about whether the route went free in the first place, they aren't the limiting factor the way they are in aid. When you run out of features on aid, the only alternatives to drilling are traverse or penjis to where you can keep going, bailing, or cheater sticks and throwing hexes.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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But aid routes change with use. In the desert even CLEAN aid routes change.
Attempting to institute stability in the rating paying attention only to fixed hardware is missing the long-term picture.
Maintaining the viability of the route itself should be the first priority since subsequent ascents can't really recreate the adventurous atmosphere of the FA without a little fantasy.
If we fixate on rating we could throw the baby out with the bathwater and wake up to find that our myopic practises have curtailed our access to the rocks.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oh, and casting hexes can get you burned. ha
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Yes, my comments were a bit general. We have some hard aid routes at Squamish, but not many, and they're not climbed often. So rivet-replacement, if it is an issue, is quietly addressed.
There are similar issues related to those who free longer routes, often adding fixed anchors or otherwise changing the route, e.g. variations. There've also been other threads on how free-ascenders can sometimes be a bit territorial.
A bit OT: The Grand Wall bolt ladder now has official heritage designation. It crosses a 100 metre blank section, starting about 80 metres off the ground and ending at the base of the Split Pillar. Baldwin and Cooper established it in 1961. Most of the 70+ bolts are 3/16", and only about 1/3 have hangars. For practical purposes, rivets. Newer routes cross the ladder, and it's roughly on the line of the rappels, but no one now climbs it. (Probably unsafe.) There was talk of removing the old studs, but most recognize their historical value.
It may have been the longest bolt ladder in the world at the time it was put up (dubious distinction), and apart from some modern long sport routes, and Cerro Torre, is still one of the longest.
The nearest analogy would be the summit bolt ladder on the Nose of El Capitan - although I suspect those bolts may have been updated, and of course are still in use.
Anders
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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The ethic on the cutting edge aid routes of the late 70's- and on was to never put in a protection bolt mid pitch. If there was a blank move or section we used machine heads which actually have held a lot of short falls (by subsequent ascentionists). The idea was to maintain committment, and drill fast. Routes change quick, but it really would change the character of a lot of still classic aid pitches to replace rivets with 3/8 bolts.
Once you are swinging a hammer you become some kind of sculptur to a more or less degree, so some type of consensus ethics are useful to keep the game alive.
Peter
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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...which is more important to preserve, the routes viability or the route's difficulty?
Keep it viable and it gets more traffic. More traffic -> more polished.
So it might get "safer", but harder. (my 0.02).
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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If mediocre placement locations degrade then replacing rivets with bonafide bolts might STILL not mitigate the remaining degradation.
Once again, the fixed hardware is only part of the picture. Until routes are stabilized, as in climbed hammerless, they will continuously change. They can even become easier AND harder at the same time!
The rating should NOT be the criteria of determination.
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PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
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So, what then does one do when confronted with such "Barbaric" destruction as below??? This used to be a straight forward A3/4 RURP/BEAK Seam. Now, it is a "Cluster F*%K" which requires balls of steel and trickery from hell..P2, "Artist Tears". Makes A4+ hooking on granite, childs play! Answer: Do what you got to! But, do not add or alter the current reality which lies ahead of you! Ha! PS: One of my all time favorite test pieces... great "prooving ground" to find a valid aidmeister partner!!!
Just don't fall tough guys & gals, it's a 150+' grounder from this point! And the "Hell" has just begun for the next 300+ feet! Hee Hee Hee!!!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Do not add or alter?
That's what happens every time its climbed. It bears little resemblence to the initial experience.
I doubt very much it was EVER climbed by someone who hoped to turn it into a clean route.
No vision= depleted resource.
It is the residue from a celebration of selfish pursuit.
If people placed a higher priority on creating a route that could remain viable and permit far more people to enjoy the "position" than chasing ratings then you might not have a mess like the above.
But people would much rather try to acquire glory and see intitiating this process with beaks and rurps as honorable.
Conversely they see the bolts that might have preserved these delicate features as perfidious.
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PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
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Ron...
In simple terms, it was created by selfish people who hadn't a clue on how to:
1) Climb within their abilities/experience, which includes the "Cleaner's" abilities/experience.
2) Didn't give a "Rats Ass" about the rest of the world. Just as long as they did the route.
This destruction stems from selfish people pounding #1-#3 angles into the soft Entrada, which was originally a challenging A4 RURP/BEAK, to feel "Secure", and the cleaner simply pounding the shhheeet out of it in order to retrieve the pins.
I have seen this time and time again in the past ten years or so, including on many of your routes, when "Wall Climbing" turned..."Cool". "I got a Big Wall Rack so now I can conquer anything!!!" mentality! Example, P2-3 of Touchstone!!! What used to be a #1 & #2 Alien & #7 Offset crack, has become, will, you know.
Visionary? That is so far from the mentality that is abundant in so many locations today. You better keep praying!
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