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micronut
Trad climber
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When hauling big loads I like to make sure everything is balanced and packed evenly.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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5'1.875" and 120.
I'm weak, old and need comfort.
I NEED everything I haul up there!
WTF, we suffered hauling! I don't want to suffer anymore. Didn't you read my posts before posting yours? I stated my reasons for climbing the way I do.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"How clever to rig a 1:2 hauling system. That would be much faster."
Big Wall Theory at its finest!
[At least the 1:1 bit is correct]
I think Mark must be shrinking. He is even smaller than I remember. Perhaps he is atrophying? ;)
WTF and Skully should go climb a wall together. They would be so happy being miserable.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Here is my rig chugging away atop El Cap (name the route if you can). I originally had the mini-trax up one biner, sharing a spot on the big Williams locker with the end knot, but it fought with end knot and made things act funny/scary. Adding one biner for freedom made everybody happy, and hauling bags over the final lip was the easiest yet. In general hauling with a 2:1 is more like an aerobic activity instead of feeling like a weight lifting session using a 1:1. I'd rather be winded at the end of hauling than totally worked. After about a couple days I was able to switch with 2:1 leg hauling and was not even winded after hauling. My skinny partner had to stick to 2:1 body hauling the whole way.
On top I have 2 6" spectra slings to give freedom of movement, yet still be redundant on a high wear spot, other folks seem to have no issues using 8mm cord there, just make sure it never gets cut your your haul bag will funk you hard. I had no issues with using 5mm spectra for the cord, though our bags were not Canadian Assassin sized, merely just past annoying for 1:1. The top pully is a SMC Swiftwater pulley, and was nice and smooth, though one without the bolt heads sticking out so much would have been nice.
Here I am without a 2:1 on top of Mideast Crisis a few years ago, yucko.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Pete, yes, I am shrinking. In my prime (whenever that was) I was 5' 2.5". I've lost a whole 5/8" in the last couple of years! I'm also the fittest I've ever been in my life right now and have lost 8 pounds. I'm down to about 9% body fat.
Coz, yeah, I know, it must be some badge of honor or mark of Manhood or something to take the bare minimum and then suffer hauling it via 1:1. I don't have that many El Cap routes left in me and on the last few, I'm sure I'll dispense with hauling even 2:1, and just pay someone to come up the route with me and do all the hauling!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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How much will you pay?
"I had no issues with using 5mm spectra for the cord"
Holy frig - look at the abrasion in the zed-cord!
That cord is about two pulls away from snapping! I'll tell you what - when those cords snap, it sure wakes you up.
I just bought one of those Petzl Prusik Minding Pulleys [91% efficient] to replace my old Petzl Fixe Pulley [only 71% efficient] on the inverted ascender. This should make hauling just a little easier.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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I just bought one of those Petzl Prusik Minding Pulleys [91% efficient] to replace my old Petzl Fixe Pulley [only 71% efficient] on the inverted ascender. This should make hauling just a little easier.
What are you using for your top pulley Pete?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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May 10, 2013 - 12:39am PT
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Holy frig - look at the abrasion in the zed-cord!
Get your eye's checked, a few fliers light up due to the flash. The cord is in fine shape.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 10, 2013 - 01:58am PT
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I have a PhD in physics but get this stuff wrong all the time...
rigging predates physics by a very long time, the ancient Egyptians were doing it...
but the middle example in Steve's Fig. 6-46 above is a 1:2 system as shown, so you all were right... the "4:1" is a "3:1"...
you can try to unfold these:
http://www.swe.org/iac/lp/pulley_03.html
a 2:1 system can't be built using the rope to the pig, the pulley that pulls the pig up would have to be on a separate line, e.g.:
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 10, 2013 - 03:06am PT
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"Why people haul so much sh!t these days anyways?"
that's a 1:1 haul system
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 10, 2013 - 08:41am PT
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See that? A real live rocket scientist! Saved by Ed - thanks, mate!
Could you please post that photo from Yosemite Climber that buddy above is referring to? "Early foray onto P.O. Wall" or something like that. Bridwell or Werner is dressed in hippie colours and is behind the block in that little cubbyhole at the Continental Shelf bivi.
I see I have made a number of product improvements since we Mike Clelland! and I drew up the 2:1 Hauling Ratchet diagram:
 I prefer 7mm perlon as the zed-cord. It will last twice as many walls as 6mm. 5.5mm Spectra will only last a quarter as long, and is several times more expensive, but works fine if you don't do many walls
I use doubled 9/16" webbing which sits "flat" on the top pulley instead of "round" cord
Use TWO carabiners on your belay donut so you can more easily release the zed-cord after use!
The Pro-Trax shown in the diagram is a total piece of sh|t for 1:1 hauling and is emphatically knott recommended for hauling large loads. We only used it because at the time it was the most popular device, only because it was the most readily available. Get yourself a Kong Block-Roll if you are serious about hauling
I still can't get rid of that crab in my system! Although Klaus did take him on an extended vacation to places like Muscle Beach for five walls seasons. Unfortunately he did not come back any stronger, and is not much use for hauling. He is, however, the most patient belayer I have ever climbed with.
Briham89 - I use the pulley marked #9 in this photo as my upper pulley. It's a sweet multi ball-bearing jobbie from SMC:
I should also mention that there is an excellent 2:1 hauling post over at Mountain Project with great photos that you really have to see [if only to see the girl in the Olde English T-shirt]:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/21-haul-setup---rate-my-rigging/107577488__1
Cheers, eh?
I've got some movies from El Cap on how to operate the 2:1 that I will post up later on Youtube when I have some time. Can someone please explain to me precisely what I need to do to embed the video right here in the McTopo forum, so you don't have to click on a link? The way Matty embedded Mark's video on the front page?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 10, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
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geeze... I don't even get paid for this...
videos... man...
when you are viewing a YouTube video, the URL shows up something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ew8FqN79Q
to embed this in STForum, you click the "Video" button above the edit box and put in the "YouTube Video ID:" box o5ew8FqN79Q
make sure you get all of the characters
the YouTube video id follows the "v=" tag in the URL, sometimes it's confusing because there can be a lot of other stuff too, if you can't figure it out, just post the whole URL here and someone can tell you what to do...
or you could just put the tag:
[ youtube=o5ew8FqN79Q] {excluding the space between the opening "[" and "youtube"}
this is explained on the pop-up page you get clicking the "Video" button too
RtFM!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 11, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
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Ed- Are you saying that the middle figure in the hauling systems that I posted is less efficient at 1:2 than a straight single pulley system at 1:1?
Nice to keep the nomenclature straight.
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Onewhowalksonrocks
Mountain climber
In the middle of the ocean
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May 11, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
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Secret boobs spammed this topic
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 11, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
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There is always room for titties in a technical climbing post, but could you please post up some A's or barely B's? What is this fascination with BIG hooters? I don't get it.
"Ed- Are you saying that the middle figure in the hauling systems that I posted is less efficient at 1:2 than a straight single pulley system at 1:1?"
I about pissed myself with laughter when I read what Grossman wrote above!!
Bloody 'ell, Steve - how STUPID are you????
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
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May 11, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
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In the above diagram:
Get rid of the "Frost Draw" and clip the ratchet in to the bottom hole, where it says biner required. Simple and easy to go back and forth between both systems.
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
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Thanks for the tip Ammon, neat trick. The only downside I see is a bit more of the zed cord in the system but it does seem streamlined.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 11, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
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^^ You're both right.
The whole idea is to minimize the amount of "stuff that stretches" in the system.
You don't necessarily need a Frost Draw. You could use carabiners or even Spectra webbing tripled or whatever. You just have to play around with it, and figure out the configuration that works best for you. Once you understand it, you can fine tune it. Orientations and lengths are critical - the pulleys all have to mesh with virtually zero haul line between the teeth of the inverted ascender and the holding device, which in this drawing is the Pro-Trax.
What's funny and what I just noticed in the drawing above is that Mike! might have taken some artistic license with the Frost draw. Note how the ends are rotated 90 degrees from each other. I don't think Tom made them that way!
In fact, I'm sure the ends of the Frost Draw are knott like that. Mike! has cleverly drawn the system in sort of a "flat plane" - in reality, the zed-cord aligns more or less straight into the wall in front of you, while the free end of the haul line coming out of the Pro-Trax goes ninety degrees right and parallel to the wall. Clever drawing. Mike! can draw anything - he's just amazing that way. He got this sketch perfect in only a couple emails back and forth, too.
Plus the drawing is the way I operate it, as I'm left handed. If you're a "righty" you will need to adjust it accordingly, which is sort of a mirror image, but sort of not. Which is why you need to practise!
Ammon is probably the only guy on the forum - and maybe anywhere! - who has used the Chongo ratchet extensively before me. Ammon's first big wall ever was a solo of the NA Wall on El Cap. He showed up in Yosemite, Chongo showed him how to make the ratchet, and then Ammon sent.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2013 - 10:27pm PT
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I do a somewhat simpler version by which I can still easily haul 150% of my body weight.
The inverted Gibbs (in my case) is on a sling to allow the Gibbs to slide down about two to three feet below me on the rope heading down to the bag. The regular ascender is attached to the "pull" side of the rope as in a traditional set up.
I reach down with one hand, grab the Gibbs sling, thrust down with my body weigh, and pull up on the Gibbs sling.
By pulling up on the Gibbs sling, I'm effectively adding weight to myself, which increases the pull on the pull-side of the pulley. At the same time, I'm pulling up directly on the bag via the Gibbs. So, I'm adding pull to the traditional system both directly and indirectly.
You might think this would get really tiring, particularly for the Gibbs arm, but surprisingly it really doesn't. And this setup doesn't have any more complication than a traditional setup (except for adding an inverted Gibbs to the mix).
Unlike a 2-to-1 setup, you're not thrusting 1 foot to gain 6 inches. You "get it all" with the simplified setup, but you also radically increase your effective pulling power at little increase of overall effort. Thrust down a foot, and the bag comes up a foot.
Many of you, I'm sure, have done something much like this when hauling over any edge, as you just grab the down-rope with one hand and pull up to help get a body-weight thrust started. On the setup I'm describing, you simply "go straight at" that intuition and make it as efficient as possible.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
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May 12, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
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I never use a foot to haul, if the haul is light enough for a leg to haul then it's light enough for both hands to pull 1:1.
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