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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 7, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
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Soooo...I'm prepping for a route with partner who's a lightweight @ 125lbs. Started playing around with a 2:1 ratchet so he can haul and that I could use on solos later this year. After reading a bunch of stuff online this is what I have. There are several changes I would be making for real system (this is just a garage prototype).
These things will be changed:
a) Pro-trax in final version not micro.
b) Several pieces of 6 or 7mm cord connecting top pully to biner.
c) thicker cord for ratchet line (7 or 8mm)
These are things I'm concerned about:
1) I'm using a petzl rescue pulley on top and when I span it with a biner like Hudon it will not sit nicely in the middle, as you can see in the picture the biner with the micro(pro)-Trax sits off to one side or the other. Is this a problem?
2) Related to #1...because the trax is not directly under the pulley will this result in movement and lost efficiency? Will the movement cause the cord at the top of the to pulley to wear out quickly?
3)Should I worry about a backup? Seems like the two ratchets back each other up...if both were to fail (or the cord up top) seems like the bag would just drop until it is caught by a backup knot. A backup (like a quickdraw) would not prevent this so is it even necessary?
4)Would it be better to just connect the trax to the haul biner and not use the biner spanning the pulley?
Any tips/tricks/ideas/improvements/thoughts from the resident haul lords (Hudon/PTPP etc...) out there would be appreciated. Thanks
Matt
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WBraun
climber
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If you're gonna go thru all that trouble I personally would use a petzl double pulley to simplify those two systems.
This way you can easily switch out your 2 to 1 to 1 to 1 quickly and efficiently.
Also I would use 8mm cord for your 2 to 1 ratchet setup.
And I would use a prussic on the main haul line and have it work as a prussic minding pulley system.
The Petzl Protraction I wouldn't even bother with.
But whatever ... do what you need to do and what I said above is only what I would do if I had to haul all that sh!t.
Why people haul so much sh!t these days anyways?
Good luck on your adventure .......
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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It seems like a probable cluster to have your rope-grabbing pulley connected to your 2:1 system.
What I like to do, being the lighter, slower, and wimpier climber most often, is switch to two people hauling 1:1 when the follower hits the belay. The lighter person runs the cord from their harness, through a high pulley, and to the jug and haul 1:1 on the bag side while the bigger partner hauls 1:1 on the standard/more efficient rope side.
If the 2:1 biner is weighted with the bag pulley, you can't rerig it as easily.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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But then he has to do J :)
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Do him? This what I've done w/ all of my partners, minus the 2:1. Obviously it doesn't apply if you're speedy enough to have the pitch hauled before the second arrives, but 2:1's don't usually imply teams moving fast and light. This is just a way of simul-hauling that is easier to coordinate and keeps the helper/second from feeling like a rat on a demoralizing, sinking exercise wheel. I hate that.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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That what I use, exactly the same, though I swaged a fat cable connection from the upper pulley instead of the cord.
Doesn't get more streamline than that.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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That's the setup I have been playing with too.
No need to go to a pro traction. It's not like that is actually the pulley you are hauling off of, so why would you need to change it? Get what I mean?
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Ditto for the gerbil feeling...so demoralizing.
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Prod
Trad climber
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No need to go to a pro traction. It's not like that is actually the pulley you are hauling off
Looks like it is the pulley that is is hauling off of when he switches to 1:1.
Prod.
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
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Thanks for the input everyone...
In my system there the micro(or a pro) would be holding the weight of the bags as the ratchet resets and would be used for to 1:1 also.
I was thinking the micro may not be enough for a big load (lets say 150-200lbs) but I just looked again at the specs for pro vs micro trax and not much difference. Perhaps I can keep the micro. Not tried to haul with it yet (just bought it). Probably want a bigger diameter wheel for a big load 1:1
How much does everyone haul off a micro?
Off to climb now...may try the ratchet with some changes.
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Prod
Trad climber
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BTW, I had a Protraxion deform because it did not center on the biner I was using. Try the Petzl Atache if you get one. It works great for me.
Prod.
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Jacemullen
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Considering there is a one Kn difference in between the Pro and Micro traxion as far as working loads go, and only a 5% difference in efficiency, I don't see any reason to dump cash on a protraxion. Especially since there is like 6oz weight difference between the two.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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I rate it a waste of time.
1:1 or ya might as well just bail.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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^^bullsh#t.
That's like saying free climb or bail. Do 1:1 if you can, but otherwise do the best you can with what you can.
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 01:15am PT
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The pro trax is way old so no extra cash there.
Tried the ratchet with a few changes tonight and seemed to work well (very low haul load though). I'll post another pic tomorrow. I hung the micro off a short sling from the top biner and that was ok too.
I've climbed walls before (solo too) but always 1:1 now I have a lighter partner and wanted to play around and see what's what. If we use it it would probably only be for his pitches at the start.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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I hauled 500lbs with that same rig, using a mini-trax in place of the micro.
Don't know how you would 1:1 that kind of load.
Different systems on different routes.
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Hey Matty,
I am just a hauling student like you. My interest is in learning the tricks of the trade and applying it to my new hobby of climbing photography. The hauls I do are relatively light weight, and so far not redundant; however, I take a great deal of interest in what you are trying to accomplish here and have some questions, a critique, some observations, and some recommendations that might help or at least contribute to the discussion.
QUESTIONs:
Is this a 'piggy back' 2:1 / 1:1 system?
If so, why are the two rope capture devices stacked up?
Why do you need redundancy like this (stacked)?
If redundancy is needed, Why not make two parallel systems?
OBSERVATIONs:
From the anchor you have the Petzl rescue pully (fixed) which redirects the cord you pull to bring the load up. From there the cord goes down to the mechanical advantage (moving) pully which appears to be the micro trax (in rope capture mode). That alone is your 2:1 system.
CRITIQUE:
I don't understand the need for all of the rest given the way it is setup (ie, ascender underneath the moving pully). The second rope capture device (ascender) would work independently if you placed it under the second fixed pulley (linked with utility cord). Having them stacked in this way seems to nullify the purpose of the ascender since it is moving WITH the load. This is too much stuff IMO.
RECOMMENDATIONs:
I think this could be improved by the use of a small rigging plate (RP) ($25), where you could attach one end of the cord to the anchor (via RP), and have that neatly balanced with the fixed pully.
Get rid of the second system completely and use the ascender to pull the cord through the fixed pulley. Even with a 2:1, you're talking about a significant amount of weight and pulling with just your hand is going to stress the muscles in your hands (even if you wear gloves). This can become very painful over a day or two and affect your climbing.
Thanks for posting up with your system and for asking questions that generate a discussion you and others like myself can learn from. I appreciate that Matty.
Regards,
Bill McKirgan
###???###???###
As I get ready to 'post this reply' I'm wondering if there really is some advantage to having a 'stacked' system like this. If there is, it is a mystery to me as I cannot imagine how pulling two cords simultaneously would create any advantage This just doesn't seem to make sense to me, and that's mainly because I am imagining what happens if you let go of both cords there in the picture of your system in the garage. I think it would all be held by the micro trax, but then you wouldn't be able to push the ascender down to grab more of the larger cord since the micro is locked to the anchor.
Please Haul Lord Illuminati explain!
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Prod
Trad climber
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Hi Bill,
In this case you are pulling the 7mm cord in a 2:1 which is pulling the assender and haul line up. The Mini trax then holds the rope so you can push the assender back down the haul line and start pulling 2:1 again. You do not need to pull both the cord and the haul line.
Prod.
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Hi Prod,
Okay, but what holds the other (green) cord? Is the 1:1 fixed pulley a rope capture type of pulley? If so, then I get it.
Otherwise, it looks like one would have to hang on to that green cord while pushing the ascender down.
Thanks!
--Bill
--edit: I thought the moving pully was the mini/micro trax (on the 7mm). I guess the haul line (green cord) has the mini/micro trax as the fixed pulley.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Bill, that gold pulley is a hauling rope capture device called a micro traxion. So no you don't have to hold the green rope. You just have to pull the slack through when you haul up on the 2:1 system.
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