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LuckyNeck
Trad climber
the basement of Lou's Tavern
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Go away you one dimensional freak ....
+1
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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All I hear are crickets
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Largo wrote
What a person believes or doesn't believe is none of our business. Maybe someday Alex will have a "boundary experience" and he will get another take on himself, but that's none of our business as well.
Which aspects of people are "our business?" Particularly when that person publishes their beliefs under their name to promote them. Of course this is a topic for discussion or nothing is.
Putting value judgements on what believe or purport to know is the heart of ignorance IMO. People usually follow and are led by their direct experiences, whatever they are.
I fine with this though. I think it makes a lot less difference what you "Believe" and a lot more difference how you "Are" For me the Spirituality of a person is in how open their heart and mind is, if they have peace, and how they treat people, and not what they "believe" which goes away as soon as they stop thinking about it, which is most of the time
Peace
Karl
JL
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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I agree- it's none of our business.
Go Alex. I like you even more now.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Well, If Alex changes his mind this flow chart may be helpful for choosing an appropriate religion.
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jstan
climber
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Which aspects of people are "our business?" Particularly when that person publishes their beliefs under their name to promote them. Of course this is a topic for discussion or nothing is.
We all have had experiences in which we merely expressed our ideas and had them used in ways we had no way of predicting. Absent specific information we can't know that Alex knew this would be a project. We all get late evening cold calls like this.
Alex is a quite admirable youngster who handles himself well despite his youth. During his development do we want to pretend he is just one more weird "american celebrity"?
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JOEY.F
Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
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Will it be known as the thank gaia ledge ?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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At what notoriety lumen factor should we begin caring about a climber’s belief system?
Does any climber remember Warren Harding’s beliefs concerning determinism and the problem of incompatibilistic evil. I, personally, am dying to ask Beth her pronouncements about karma and reincarnation.
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jstan
climber
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We should begin to worry about anyone's belief system only when that system begins to interfere with the performance of their duties as a citizen.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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^^^^^
Good post
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"duties" as a citizen...and what are these citizen's "duties," and what principal standard are you basing them on? Name your source.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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I think Jstan is suggesting obeying civil law as duties of a citizen.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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We should begin to worry about anyone's belief system only when that system begins to interfere with the performance of their duties as a citizen.
That's written as if exploring someone's belief system was an inquisition intended to defame
I think when people are doing superhuman death-defying things, you're curious what's in their head and how they are wired for this.
I'm fascinated to know Dean Potter's inner relationship with Spirit and the subtle powers in mind, body and such
I might not share Alex's view but I'm totally down for Alex. Super guy!
Peace
Karl
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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I liked Gene's post ...
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Nice post Lolli. My family and I feel the same way. There is a huge difference is respecting someone's beliefs and believing in them.
Cheers
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soaring_bird
Trad climber
Oregon
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Call out to the Lord for His forgiveness,
and He shall lift you up on.....
Wings of Steel !
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jstan
climber
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I think when people are doing superhuman death-defying things, you're curious what's in their head and how they are wired for this.
Everything we do, we do after carefully seeking a balance. I am not against curiosity. I do worry that some public expression might have contributed to a later tragedy. What will I think then?
BITD nearly everyone soloed at one time or another. Our response then was to say nothing, for reasons like the one I just stated.
Now the fact is if I were to learn what is in someone's head, the only way this would happen is by hearing what they themselves said. That requires no public expression or even public expression of interest by myself.
I do what I do for the reasons above. Possibly I am overstepping by expressing even these things. I hope not.
This is all very serious.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Putting value judgements on what believe or purport to know is the heart of ignorance IMO
There you go again.
People who have beliefs (mental holdings) based on their science education have a right to evaluate them, valuate them, put value judgments on them, however you want to say it. -And where would they be without this right, otherwise ability?
Beliefs in religion or science aside, you have beliefs yourself that you value. Everyone does. You might call it being human.
Who's wearing the pointy hat today?
Back in the corner, Fruity.
Had you the discrimination required, you'd understand that what I am saying is that it is none of our business to evaluate someone's ELSES beliefs. We should continually evaluate our own, but what Alex believes or does not believe about, say, spirituality, is strictly his own business and by and large will be a reflection of his own direct experiences and how he interprets same. In any case, this is all an inside job - and outside of my immediate purview.
Unless you have the same direct experiences as someone else, you have nothing but your own thoughts per what someone else believes, and in this case psychology has been pretty thorough in showing that your evaluations will be relative to your own experiences (projections). This, IOW, is the "heart of ignorance."
That clear enough?
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Now that's rich you calling me out on a lack of discrimination, lol!
Your post is clear but your reasoning once again is a wee-bit choppy. Religions make a mess of beliefs, their nature and their role in our lives. Beliefs matter. They are not inconsequential. They are the best predictor of behavior. That is the point that you fail to note.
Here's your error, plain as day.
it is none of our business to evaluate someone's ELSES beliefs
Sure it is. When they translate to action or behavior that is injurious, deleterious, counterproductive in community or society.
This is so elementary it's amazing we need to elaborate on it. But again, I think it because religions muddy the water so.
How much do you care about your community? How much do you care about getting involved? It hangs on your answer and it hangs on the subject and circumstances.
People have beliefs in science, in rockclimbing, for example in regard to safety, etc.; people have beliefs in ideology and politics. If I care about preserving the earth the way my ancestors experienced it then the beliefs of land developers, for instance, should concern me. Or perhaps better: If I care about preserving the natural fresh water creek that runs through my property while a property developer upstream has the belief that re routing it better serves the community by way of enriching his plans for a golf course renovation then it should be my business to evaluate this person's belief and to stand up against it insofar as it's bs.
We gotta get real here, that's what I'm for. Rockclimbers aren't THAT stupid.
If your belief is drill baby drill, I am going to critique otherwise judge your belief. If your belief is Jesus will protect us believers even as the CO2 gets to 500ppm, and then to 700 ppm I am going to challenge your belief.
One might even argue it is one's civil duty to make someone "ELSES" deleterious beliefs concerning his community go away. All the more so in a democracy. All the moreso if it's a democracy that prides itself on being educated, wise, in the practices of living and doing no harm.
But ain't all this obvious? Sure it is. The link between belief and action is clear. Bad belief, bad action. Bad belief, bad behavior. Only one's defense of Abrahamic religion keeps this principle from being clearly understood, clearly enunciated, and often.
Good on Alex for voicing his beliefs regarding ancient theology. And good on all others for same. No more free passes for religions (esp the Abrahamic religions) or their whacky beliefs. Things need to change. I'm sick of the Pat Robertsons to Frank Grahams to Sarah Palins running so much of the show with their ignorance and obscurantisms. Bronze age superstitions - esp those that have been institutionalized (empowered through institution) - need to end the sooner the better. Time is now.
.....
I know you're interested in free will, causality and determinism, facing up to human mortality. Read Encountering Naturalism, by Thomas Clark. It's the source, change your life. :)
.....
Bdoog's video speaks truth, eh? Time is now, challenge this crazyiness.
Be the change you seek in the world.
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