Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2011 - 11:54pm PT
|
Yes, I'm a teacher and proud of it.
No, I don't talk about "forbidden secret knowledge" with students. Not the place to do it, nor is it the time.
However, I'm a US citizen, and I have Constitutional/Bill of Rights as you do, and I will exercise them as long as I can before the corrupt powerful elite takes them away, outside the classroom.
We can go round and round on this. Many sources have been given and discussed before. The evidence of LIHOP/MIHOP is overwhelming.
I prefer to listen to one very important honest eye-witness who was actually in WTC 7. Barry Jennings . . .
http://jenningsmystery.com/
He knows the truth.
So do these American Heroes . . .
http://patriotsquestion911.com/
Can governments kill their own? They sure can. And they have many times throughout history. Sometimes they think of us as canon fodder.
|
|
nature
climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 12:05am PT
|
I've yet to read anything in this thread from you that I regard as science.
and realize.... i've always been "on your side" in just about every discussion on this forum.
but you lost me in this thread. completely.
|
|
Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 02:17am PT
|
That is a great post, Dr F. I call the results of 9-11 an allergic reaction. The big damage to our country came from our own over reaction rather than from the destruction of those buildings or the loss of life. In terms of actual damage, Katrina was far more devastating. Katrina took out a whole city plus numerous smaller towns.
The sudden, unexpected nature of the attack created a heightened emotional reaction. Then everyone mentally searches for causes that match the intense emotional charge of the results. The too simple story of 19 guys with minimal weapons persuading passengers and crew to passively surrender is just too bland. It can't be that. There must be more to it. The simple solution to tell passengers and crew to never again submit to a hijacker is even worse. We can't just do that! We have to take action! 9-11 was horrible! We must do something big; with explosions and smoke and fires to match the horror of 9-11 itself!
If we were in an actual war, the loss of a few buildings, no matter how big, would be considered a modest cost. Compare the destruction in New York with what we did to many cities in Iraq and Afghanistan. Yet we are still not satisfied.
--------
I am pretty bummed that no one commented on my joke story. I was hoping for at least a chuckle or two.
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 02:23am PT
|
Little green men from area-51 put on stealth suits and wired up the trade towers + one extra little building with Antarian micro thermite explosives.
All this from idiots who wouldn't know how to prove the world is round.
Seriously.
Jeez .. must be flat i guess.
Unless you can show me one simple example of how an average person with readily available items they probably already own can measure the circumference of the earth fairly accurately. I don't even want to hear your BS physics "proof"
|
|
bmacd
Mountain climber
100% Canadian
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 04:48am PT
|
High Traverse thanks for this link - http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm - clearly building 7 was heavily damaged and burned hard before it collapsed on it's own. The conspiracy theorists never showed us those videos and images.
I definitely got suckered in by the WTC7 misrepresentations. The knowledge of how fragile these types of towers really are explains the secrecy surrounding some of the investigation results.
Lastly the post showing the possibility of getting hit by lightning in the US, is nearly twice as great as being killed by a terrorist attack anywhere in the world. Thats an eye opener too.
Great posts, thanks everyone. We are very fortunate they didn't target a nuclear reactor.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 09:44am PT
|
I prefer to listen to one very important honest eye-witness who was actually in WTC 7. Barry Jennings . . .
http://jenningsmystery.com/
He knows the truth.
And we have the science and the visual evidence of a controlled demolition.
We also have several news networks admit on camera that WTC 7 had fallen, yet it was clearly standing in the background while on camera when they said all this. OOooopppppssssiiieeeee. Let the cat of of the bag early.
We also have Silversteen and his infamous admission on camera in an interview " . . . Let's pull-it . . . and we did . . ." blah-blah-blah. OOoooopppppsssiiieeeee. Let the cat out of the bag again. Dang the truth just leaks out at really inopportune times. Bummer.
Sorry, but you can't just dismiss the truth no matter how hard you try.
|
|
John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 09:56am PT
|
you gonna argue the map?!?!?!??
google the images folks,
building 6
right inbetween 1 and 7
was pummeled to death with the explosive debris of 1
didnt collapse
Yes
I don't own this photo, I found it on the 'net. If this violates TOS, I apologize.
6WTC was only about 8 stories high. So it didn't have that preponderance of weight to bring it down. I saw it several times from above in the months after. A big chunk torn out of it. The Federal paperwork had burned merrily for some time as well. But it wasn't carrying the weight of say another 30 stories on top as was the 7. But the 7 was much further away. I'm willing to accept something hit the 7 that was on fire.
An aircraft engine plunged 92 floors down near the front door of the 6WTC and was still running. So pieces of aircraft were sprayed around the vicinity.
The Government never had a hearing on the circumstances. So there will always be those who suspect foul play. The 7 didn't have to come down IMO.
Quick work probably could've saved it. Was probably worth about a billion dollars but the decision to let it go wasn't made by the owners. It was made by people who had just had their brains blown out by the enormity of what they had just witnessed.
The real crime on 9/11 was the number of first responder deaths. It is, IMO, something people would prefer not to discuss and why no public hearings.
There were engineers in NYC who knew instinctively the towers were coming down. They were never consulted. In my younger days, I ran the stairwells many times rather than take the elevator. They were narrow. So you had firefighters carrying up about 80 - 100 lbs each, making roughly 30 -35 floors per hour, colliding with people trying to get down. Most of this in the first tower struck - the 1WTC.
The first plane had hit around the 92d floor and poured roughly 20,000# of jet fuel down the elevator shaft immolating people in the elevators and in the lobby. So only the stairwells could be used. Tight narrow stairs with heavily laden firefighters going up and thousands of office workers from the 90th floor and below, coming down. A nightmare.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 11:15am PT
|
Lastly the post showing the possibility of getting hit by lightning in the US, is nearly twice as great as being killed by a terrorist attack anywhere in the world.
That says a lot. Especially when you consider the budget of our Homeland Security Department.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 12:04pm PT
|
Werner knows. It was an "inside job."
|
|
Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
|
Thank you for posting Mr. Duffield. You bring up some really good points that are ignored normally and even more so in conspiracy discussions like this.
I had not heard about the jet fuel going down the elevator shafts, but it makes perfect sense. If the impact blasts open the elevator shaft, then it acts as a perfect drain.
If you have some knowledgeable engineers who are pretty sure tho towers are going to collapse, but they can't or don't communicate with the emergency people going into the building, then we have the greater disaster that we had. From a social or communications perspective, what could have been done different? Were any of those engineers frantically calling the city and fire departments, trying to persuade them that the building were going to collapse? If so, what road blocks did they hit.
In hind sight we know that everyone should have evacuated as quickly as possible and no one should have gone into the buildings. The people above the impacts could only go up to the roof in the faint hope of rescue there. I recall hearing stories that many people were told to stay put and wait for rescue, or perhaps many people felt they should stay put and wait for rescue. I keep wondering are there potentially better systems for evacuating people from buildings of this size, especially the people trapped above such a fire?
For those who question Mr. Duffield's actual existence, I do not know him, but I note that he has posted on Summitpost.org since about 2005. From my point of view, the quality of his posts speaks for itself.
|
|
rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
|
small point, but the elevator shafts where not continuous. Different shafts for different floor sectors.
"Ever persistent, the defenders of the 'official story' have blamed the towers' elevator shafts for the lobby's damage. The idea is that the explosion from the impact of the airplanes created huge fireballs of energy which funneled down through the buildings via the elevator shafts, eventually exploding out into the lobby and creating the visible damage and destruction.
As with so many of the official explanations for unexplained anomalies in the 9/11 narrative, this elevator shaft theory is ridiculous. And surely it is just idle, noise-filling fluff. Something to sound vaguely intelligible to the general public. Because five minutes of research will show that the WTC Towers' elevators and shafts were not stacked vertically one on top of the other. "Instead of building enough elevators to move everybody from the ground floor to their destination, (the designers) decided to split the trip to the upper floors between multiple elevators. If people wanted to get from the ground to the top floor, they would need to jump from elevator to elevator, in the same way you might switch cars on a subway system."
from http://www.911hardfacts.com/report_10.htm
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
|
As with so many of the official explanations for unexplained anomalies in the 9/11 narrative, this elevator shaft theory is ridiculous. And surely it is just idle, noise-filling fluff
yes of course....unlike your fact filled narrative!
|
|
Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
|
Wow,
I must be really bored today to even respond to this stupid sh#t. Our government murdered thousands of it's own people? Even if they were smart enough, their just too fuken lazy!! Who do you think the government is? They are our sons and daughters. They are our neighbors and those kids we grew up with. Sure, many of them are stupid and lazy and do all kinds of stupid sh#t, but they are not cold blooded killers. I am sure their are a few of them floating around out there, but not in the numbers it would take. We never had to resort to murdering thousands of our own people for a reason to go to war before, and we won't have to, to do it again. War is a money maker and as this war winds down, they are already looking for the next one. Maybe we should focus our energy on stopping this Iran sh#t, if we can. OK I'm done,
sorry for the rant:-)
Roger
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 03:28pm PT
|
Most all the "Official Version" proponents here are too stupid to see the total evidence proving that key govt. figures allowed and were proponents of the 911 events.
It's all right there in the official 911 reports of how they did it and pulled it off.
Instead they waste their time looking down elevator shafts.
Stupid fools .....
|
|
Banquo
climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 03:36pm PT
|
“The most characteristic feature of stupidity is not the inability to think or the lack of knowledge but the certainty with which ideas are held. This certainty which easily reaches the level of arrogance is based on unique rightness.” Edward De Bono
David Perkins regarding errors in thinking: "I found that most of the weaknesses did not reflect classic fallacies formal (like “affirming the consequent”) or informal (like “ad hominem argument”) but rather reflected simple narrative models of situations with little elaboration and hardly any attention to alternative perspectives. The problem, in other words, was not so much logical error as simplistic envisioning of situations and events.”
The trouble with conspiracy theorists is that they do pretty much what Perkins describes then get all worked up and self righteous about it as De Bono describes.
Another issue that conspiracy theorists seem to be unable to live with is that we cannot prove anything absolutely - although these people believe that we should be able to. Read Karl Popper's work - he describes how the scientific method cannot prove anything absolutely although if we are lucky we can occasionally disprove things absolutely. Outside of faith, there really is no truth.
So, I have looked at the data and since it is within my area of expertise I have evaluated it and I have come a conclusion that I believe is the most probable and most reasonable one. I won't say that I know the truth but that until new data becomes available I can forget about it. At least I could forget about it if the ignorant would quit clamoring on and on about it.
As Wayne in Wayne's World correctly says, "It might happen. Yeah, and monkeys might fly out of my butt." Yes, WTC7 may have been destroyed by planted explosives but it is so unlikely that I dismiss it, it is not plausible. If you want to believe it, OK by me so long as you don't expect me to.
Let me know when there is something new to evaluate. I would be very interested in hearing if anybody found the wires that set off the charges. These wires usually lead several city blocks to a control point. If you come across a report of people spending weeks opening walls to expose the columns and then removing the 8 inches of fireproofing wrapping the column to place the charges. Usually, the columns to be cut are weakened by cutting notches with cutting torches so I would like to hear if anyone saw workmen with torches.
|
|
Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 04:32pm PT
|
Looks like many people realized the buildings were going to come down and it became more and more obvious to those inside and nearby as the buildings got weaker and closer to collapse.
http://sites.google.com/site/911stories/accountsoftowerstructuralinstabilityande
It was unexpected for those of us watching TV, since we couldn't see the leaning, couldn't hear the noises the buildings were making, and couldn't see the flexing of the structures.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 06:24pm PT
|
I repeat . . .
I prefer to listen to one very important honest eye-witness who was actually in WTC 7. Barry Jennings . . .
http://jenningsmystery.com/
He knows the truth.
And we have the science and the visual evidence of a controlled demolition.
We also have several news networks admit on camera that WTC 7 had fallen, yet it was clearly standing in the background while on camera when they said all this. OOooopppppssssiiieeeee. Let the cat of of the bag early.
We also have Silversteen and his infamous admission on camera in an interview " . . . Let's pull-it . . . and we did . . ." blah-blah-blah. OOoooopppppsssiiieeeee. Let the cat out of the bag again. Dang the truth just leaks out at really inopportune times. Bummer.
Sorry, but you can't just dismiss the truth no matter how hard you try.
|
|
lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2011 - 06:30pm PT
|
Simple structural engineering experiment.
Hollow drinking straw, putting a pressure on top of the straw to see if it will carry a load.
1.4 liter bottle with liquid [water].
Straw: 97.62 mm [3.84 inches]
Book or Magazine cases to hold bottle upright so to stabilize bottle.
Nothing happens.
Pinch/kink straw with index finger and thumb anywhere [in this case the middle]
Now put pressure on the straw, it bends and bottle falls. Why because you put or added weakness or breaching to the structural integrity of the member of that building.
What have we learned? Do we build structures out of hollow drinking straws; no! now I have to get another one to cut and use for………………..
Klimmer: Concrete contains water even in a harden state for years/years [usually 5-7%]. When the water in the concrete starts to heat up to a given temperature [high], it creates a gas [steam], this encased gas now has to find a way to get out. This is why concrete will explode.
As for your concrete works like a ceramic. If you use this for your analogy and have earthquakes they will all come down.
|
|
rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
|
not that it settles anything here - since we're all old enough to be in pain - but I always liked the quote
"you can tell how old you are, by how painful you find new ideas" ha ha
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!