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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 17, 2011 - 10:55am PT
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I know most people think this is a dead issue, and most have already made up their mind and refuse to approach the issue with an open mind. The implications are frightening I'll admit. But I ask people - especially if you haven't watched any of the various longer versions of the movie - to watch this short clip on the collapse of the World Trade Center number 7.
Politicians say it was caused by office fires. Scientists say by controlled demolition. Who do you trust.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEvA8BCoBw
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sempervirens
climber
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:04am PT
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I don't know what to believe about the whole 9-11 affair. But I do believe we have not gotten the full story. As for Building 7, I've heard this explantaion. There were some very large gas tanks (natural gas and/or propane I think...?) at the bases of several of the WTC buildings. They caught fire at the bases of the large towers and the fire spread undergound amongst all these tanks. When those under building seven finally exploded later in the afternoon of that day building seven collapsed. Plausible. Truth...?
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:12am PT
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Sempervirens-
That was diesel storage tanks for emergency power generation under building 7.
Sure, that could make a 47 story steel building with a floor area roughly equal to the (SF) Bankamerica building and the Trans-america pyramid combined collapse in 7 seconds.....
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:26am PT
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That was diesel storage tanks for emergency power generation under building 7.
The original FEMA report on WTC 7 tried to say that the diesel gas was an accelerator. After the report was released, it basically got laughed out of existance by anybody with any type of engineering degree. The job of explaining WTC 7 was quickly handed over to NIST.
They did very "scientific" studies and created computer models showing how WTC 7 collapsed. It's all there for you to read.
However, you cannot check their "proof," the data they used to determine WTC 7 collapsed by office fires is under lock and key. So the scientific method, where you can check the "proofs" and rerun the computer models, is thrown out the window. Nobody can check their work.
Nothing fishy there.
Oh, and Appendix C of the original FEMA report talks about the melted iron found at the site. They show pictures and all. The NIST report completely ignores this part of the FEMA report.
The Believers will never address these points.
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fosburg
climber
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:34am PT
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I think WTC 7 is the "magic bullet" of 9/11 even more that the "757" hitting the Pentagon. The bottom line seems to be that a huge number of people have allowed themselves to be dumbed down so far that they don't even believe their own eyes or trust their own powers of reason.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:43am PT
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"people ask me, 'is there a smoking gun?' last i counted, there were about 45 of them." -- david ray griffin
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:52am PT
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The Bush Cheney Cabal hung the sword of Damocles over the heads of NIST. They were threatened with draconian budget cuts and huge personnel loses if they didn't play ball and lie to America ala Colin Powell.
Face it your OWN government pulled the biggest "false flag" of all time on America.
And then look at the Hell they created.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:58am PT
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Building 7 was not taken down by a controlled demolition
That is a Fact
There are many other possibilities for it falling
Specifically, the debris from the falling Twin Towers fatally injured the foundation, and the diesel fires finished it off.
Fire has taken down many steel Buildings, its a fallacy that fire doesn't weaken steal
Dear Doctor, how do you know that it was not taken down by controlled demolition? You state this as "fact," but you have zero proof.
The specifics that you give were thrown out by NIST as causes. Why do you think they did that?
If you don't believe the NIST report, which you contradict in your statements, then why would NIST lie? Doesn't their lying mean something to you?
Guess not.
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nature
climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:58am PT
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everyone one of those engineers is wearing a tin foil hat.
I mean just look at them.
they even look like kooks.
nothing to see here folks... move along. trust your government. certainly we all agree they are the ones we put in power for a reason. because we trust them with all aspects of our lives.
/irony
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
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,,GOOD GAWD!!!good greif,,,and good golly waLLY! PLUS A GREAT GOOGILY MOOGILY! It's about time some thing intelligible came out of your pie hole. lol
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
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The engineers and scientists not only have tin foil hats, they have pocket protectors! And slide rules! Proof that they're part of the conspiracy.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
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apogee
climber
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
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Within the human psyche lies a never-ending heap of highly-combustible irrational fear...all it takes is a spark, and the flames erupt again!
Thanks for this thread.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
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i volunteered for richard gage for a year or so. his web page has a current count of those he's been able to convince:
http://www.ae911truth.org/
i can vouch for one thing, these are hard numbers. the 1600 architects and engineers are real professionals--he vets every one of them. what i found very interesting was some of the statements made. so many professionals figured they weren't expert enough in this "area"--in this case, steel-framed high-rises--to make the judgement. then they realized, after taking a closer look, how thin the government story is.
gage is probably the only technical figure of any prominence in this aspect of 9/11 truth, and he guards his role so jealously that i eventually tired of working with him. however, he is totally credible. he has long experience as an architect dealing with large steel-framed structures, albeit relatively low-rise, and he has also worked extensively in construction management. the issues involving building 7 and the other WTC buildings are not that difficult to understand. the government story is a complete snow job.
when gage speaks--yes, generally sympathetic audiences (who else would listen?)--he takes a poll before and after. of those who don't believe or aren't sure, he gets a 90 percent conversion rate, at least to the point where they think there ought to be a much more credible investigation. he actually began his activism with fellow architects in bay area firms where he worked. he was able to convince just about every one of them. but he has to have an hour--you have to sit down, take a good look at it, look at the reasoning, hear the rebuttals. no one will debate him.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
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Here's how it works.
There's nothing wrong with the engineers, nor NIST nor all the other so called experts.
But when you have a select key individual/individuals putting a gun to their heads or clamping them down your truth will be nothing.
Then public hears "looky here these are the experts and they know".
Just see the drooling public lap it up and believe everything their told by the controlled experts .....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
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Sounds a bit like YOSAR, doesn't it? :-)
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:42pm PT
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Dr F -- "That could Never Happen"
Famous last words .....
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
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I was there and saw most of it.
The entire NYC Fire Department was in shock after watching nearly 350 of their members disappear in the horror. When they knew there was no one in the 7WTC, they simply let it go. A relatively minor fire was allowed to consume the entire building. As simple as that. No controlled demo. No conspiracy. They were emotionally and physically spent. Any energy they had was in a futile effort to locate survivors across Vesey Street in the perimeter.
The 7 collapsed in the evening. Hours after. There’d been explosions all day and this was simply one more.
Fact is, the NYC “bunker” was in the basement of the 7. As well as a telecom switching station. The building was only finished in the ‘90s IIRC. The collapse of the 7WTC also sheered the façade off a Community College annex which is only getting repaired now a couple of blocks from where I am atm.
The building I was in, the 6WTC, was between the collapsed tower and the 7WTC which was across the street. Much of the 6WTC was still standing after until it was torn down about 3 months later. So a much closer building is still standing and one further away was allowed to collapse. So there will always be this suspicion to casual observers. But the buildings inside the GZ perimeter got the hoses. Try and cool it down to get at possible survivors.
The government hasn’t helped themselves with the wall of secrecy that the government traditionally shrouds any of its less than stellar performances. Like the non WMD in Iraq. They want their pensions. They just slap down all questions by screaming about the dead. It will always be that way until some sort of system of accountability is installed.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Nov 17, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
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Just a side note here (as an engineer with some background in structural, I don't buy the conspiracy, controlled demo tin foil bs)...Architects are about as qualified to comment on structural analysis of steel frame as I am to comment on circuit design for computer chips. I might have some vague idea of how it works and the names of parts, but would be completely ignorant of the details and specifics.
Having to work with architects daily, I have a pretty low opinion of their "skillset" such as it is. Pre industrial revolution the architect/engineer was rolled into one position called a "master builder", since the late 19th when modern structural analysis methods were developed, the field is subset of civil engineering. So archictects are basically sketch artists with a penchant for metrosexual eyewear.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 17, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
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Congrats on accepting that credible source Dr F, 100% redeemed my ass. "John Duffield, Mountain climber New York" has exactly ONE post. This is it below:"
Nov 17, 2011 - 09:55am PT
"I was there and saw most of it.
The entire NYC Fire Department was in shock after watching nearly 350 of their members disappear in the horror. When they knew there was no one in the 7WTC, they simply let it go. A relatively minor fire was allowed to consume the entire building. As simple as that. No controlled demo. No conspiracy. They were emotionally and physically spent. Any energy they had was in a futile effort to locate survivors across Vesey Street in the perimeter.
The 7 collapsed in the evening. Hours after. There’d been explosions all day and this was simply one more.
Fact is, the NYC “bunker” was in the basement of the 7. As well as a telecom switching station. The building was only finished in the ‘90s IIRC. The collapse of the 7WTC also sheered the façade off a Community College annex which is only getting repaired now a couple of blocks from where I am atm.
The building I was in, the 6WTC, was between the collapsed tower and the 7WTC which was across the street. Much of the 6WTC was still standing after until it was torn down about 3 months later. So a much closer building is still standing and one further away was allowed to collapse. So there will always be this suspicion to casual observers. But the buildings inside the GZ perimeter got the hoses. Try and cool it down to get at possible survivors.
The government hasn’t helped themselves with the wall of secrecy that the government traditionally shrouds any of its less than stellar performances. Like the non WMD in Iraq. They want their pensions. They just slap down all questions by screaming about the dead. It will always be that way until some sort of system of accountability is installed. "
Does anyone on this board know this guy? Ever met him at facelift etc etc? I suspect we are all paying his salary. LOL! He was there and saw it! LOL! Sure thing buddy. First post? He may (or may not) be a real person and a real climber, ie, what he says he is.
Uhhh, credible? 100% redeemed Dr F? Nope. For myself, I've climbed with 2 who have posted on this thread and met one or 2 more. It's a small community....with a few extras now:-)
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