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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2011 - 01:59am PT
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war: ...these old fart protecting their age old runout should be seen for what they are...
Can't speak to other people's lines, but my routes of mentioned in this thread aren't "age old" - they were all put up within the last couple of years or in the case of one, is still a work in progress.
Bob D'A: They are not your routes...they are public land. I done over 1,800 FA's and I don't own one of those routes.
I suppose a perusal of one of your guidebooks wouldn't find your name attached to them either...
Bob D'A: What impact and where? Please compare with other outdoor sports (hiking, biking, mountain biking, skiing etc..) please.
Bolts, crowds, accidents, access issues, trash, and closures. Bob, we simply have differing perspectives and opinions - nothing new there and I don't think we're going to agree here either.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 29, 2011 - 06:27am PT
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Bob, Funny you should bring this up. I always assumed that Joe was a hard core wingnut Republican from the way that he writes about climbing.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2011 - 07:16am PT
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Hmmm, 'ownership' of a route in climbing? Let's see, I suppose that depends on your perspective and what 'my route' means in climbing when someone says it.
In the context of this discussion it obviously brings up the 'rights' of FAs and guidebook 'authors'. I don't and never had much use for, or a high opinion of, guidebooks other than for big walls, basically because outside of the existence of a climb, most tell you what you can figure out for yourself (rating, gear, pro) and nothing about what you can't (the story of the FA). That, and people typically become dependent on them and usually fail to develop an eye of their own do to it.
Bottom line for me is if I put the route up and don't want it published, as the FA I think that ought to be respected. You may have a different opinion, cool. I just don't happen to share it, and I'm completely ok with that.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2011 - 07:29am PT
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Talking about them and publishing them are different things, few folks are likely to get on them either way. And, OMG, an unpublished route - now there's a major crime (no doubt further compounding the offense of not climbing for other people).
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2011 - 07:40am PT
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Common courtesy, and god knows the world doesn't need my what apparently are my overblown chossfests.
Kinda funny to be accused of only doing R/X routes to get in guidebooks, but then being castigated and accused of 'ownership' if one attempts to refute the claim and are trying to stay out of guidebooks. Now there is a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't proposition if ever there was one.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Sep 29, 2011 - 09:56am PT
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I don't have sh#t to contribute that hasn't already been said many times before, but a small note to add here is that not putting routes into guidebooks or sharing/mentioning them with others is a fast way to see bolts spring up on them. Then they will be in the guidebook with some other name...and possibly grade as well:-)
...jus sayin'...in fact, one of the 2 routes we did yesterday was named "It's all good"....which pretty much says what I think. The other one got named "Trad Dad, and we rap placed 2 bolts after we led it for those that follow. Don't clip them if you want a 50 foot fall (with a ground fall in one spot) onto marginal gear to be in your repertoire. If someone like Werner shows up and wants to free solo it, 2 bolts won't bother him.
You have to do what works for you and they're room for all of it as long as others don't override what you've done. ie, show up and retrobolt Joes route or take bolts out of Bobby D's route fait accompli, without permission, just because someone (selfishly) wants it. It should be more collaborative than that.
No one climbs Joes routes, he's fine with that, but they will get dirty and overgrown in short order, and at some point, even he won't enjoy climbing them is my prediction.
To answer the original question, I don't think any of the points raised in the first post would be as spot on as the fact that we all gain wisdom as we age. I think of the late Jim Anglin, who did some bad assed X rated routes as a youth. Ground up with a hand-drill, groundfall potential from high off the deck kind of routes. His later work was much better protected. I like to think that the bolts he added in his older age were due to the fact that he had gained wisdom in the intervening years. Certainly it's the opposite of selfishness, in that he was thinking of others who were to follow.
Is the decision either way a case of convenience, adapt-or-die, obdurate clinging to the past, selfishness, trying to stay popular with the kids, unwillingness to tarnish one's own past, unwillingness to accept one's limitations, bending with time, or being wanting things to remain within reach as we age?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 29, 2011 - 10:09am PT
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Joe wrote: I suppose a perusal of one of your guidebooks wouldn't find your name attached to them either...
No you won't...and if you did it still doesn't give me ownership of the route.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 29, 2011 - 10:29am PT
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Bob D'A,
adding to your observation:
ownership of routes as I knew of in the past did work only because a small cliquish group is all that knew or cared about them. And even this type of ownership is a far cry from having deed or title. The days of that little en crowd rule are gone.
But one thing still remains: you can call a route yours and some of us will think you did the first ascent. But everyone knows someone can add a bolt and in most regions you have no legal recourse for seeking damages.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 29, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
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Then they will be in the guidebook with some other name...and possibly grade as well:-)
yes, and then joe will get on the intardnet and bitch about someone bolting and cleaning the loose blocks of that piece of choss that he left no trace on and emphatecailly wanted left out of the guide book.
i have routes that i did where i left no trace and did not tell anyone and someone had gone and bolted them. good for them. they didnt know anybetter. not their fault. besides, they got to experience what they wanted and i got what i wanted. no harm no foul.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2011 - 05:13pm PT
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...and bitch about someone cleaning the loose blocks of that piece of choss...
Some blocks are cleanable, others are not. The block on the new route is not one of the former unless you want it to register on the seismographs up in Seattle.
Couchmaster: No one climbs Joes routes, he's fine with that, but they will get dirty and overgrown in short order, and at some point, even he won't enjoy climbing them is my prediction.
You're right, only a handful of folks do my routes - generally with me - and as you said, I'm way fine with that. To be honest, you pretty much have to be into [unbolted] roofs to get their appeal and that isn't all that common here in PDX so I'm not at all surprised they don't have much appeal locally. As for them getting dirty and overgrown, most are more or less immune from that after the initial cleaning and one trip up the rest of them at the start of the season is plenty to keep them clean. And if they are never climbed again after I leave, that's equally cool too, but I just can't walk under big roofs year in, year out without eventually giving them a whirl.
Jim Anglin and guys like you are exactly the topic of the thread - still active old guys and the influence of their choices on the demographic - bummer Jim is no longer with us to speak for himself. He definitely straddled the divide having no problem putting up 'safe' sport climbs or doing long, free runouts on big walls. The last picture of him was belaying me on the unfinished roofs project 'Menopause' and he 'got' what I was trying to do there as much as he did a someone putting up a new sport line at 'Area 51'.
Dingus McGee: But one thing still remains: you can call a route yours and some of us will think you did the first ascent. But everyone knows someone can add a bolt and in most regions you have no legal recourse for seeking damages.
"Legal recourse"? So your point is retro-bolting is ok because it's legal? Really? Is that where we and FA rights are headed? If so, chaulk up another impact of a large, commercial demographic.
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SeaClimb
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
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Jeepers Joe...just don't clip the frickin' bolt...sheesh...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
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...just don't clip the frickin' bolt...sheesh...
Therein lies the heart of ships passing in the night oblivious to each other...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 29, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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so joe,
lets say, you dont get your routes in the guide. you dont leave a trace. some new guys show up at beacon and bolt your routes, climb them and name them something different...
what are you going to do then?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
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Hawkeye: lets say, you dont get your routes in the guide. you dont leave a trace. some new guys show up at beacon and bolt your routes, climb them and name them something different...
Not really a scenario that's going to happen at Beacon where there is the odd tradition of bolted belays, also two of the routes have one or two pins on them, and another sports the only protection bolt I've ever placed in 37 years. The pins were retro'ed in a couple of Crack 'N Up and #2 Loweball placements.
But it's not like it hasn't happened and that's cool too - then someone else essentially has an 'FA experience' just like we did.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/146033/SoILL-Question-for-healyje
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