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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Bare bones" is the fact that 'developing' and 'community service' are the ego-tripping activities, not the odd R or X rated route that goes up.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Fascinating outlook Healyj.......
To what then do we owe the ego whilst searching for the community?
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lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
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You are right. I climb with a bunch of pussies. I will tell them that they should just do the crux 20 feet out before clipping the bolt. That makes way more sense than putting the bolt 6" lower.
Perhaps you do, but that was not my point. The point was that you are assuming that a GU route will have poorly placed bolts, which is an excuse not to use that style. Not all GU routes have badly placed bolts, just like not all rap bolted routes have well placed bolts.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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To what then do we owe the ego whilst searching for the community?
Over the years I've seen one ego-tripper after another serially bolting one line after another from bare crag to grid bolted at a rate where it's hard to tell if they actually were enjoying the individual lines. Pretty obvious when you run across it - frantic drilling, next, next, next, next and off to the next crag leaving a few good routes, a bunch of mediocre ones and another bunch that weren't worth the effort beyond 'rounding out' the crag and continuing the [group] social aspect of 'developing' until the last possible line of any quality is squeezed out of the place. Next.
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lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
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Yeah, exactly. Ego is in no way tied to climbing GU, quite the opposite.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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The age old and pointless quest for black and white definitions, one size fits all cookie cutters and rigid, binding dogma. Somethings never change.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Blah blah blah blah blah....
Put up new routes and put them up in good style according to the local ethic...This is such an old tired re-treaded thread...
kev
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lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
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If GU ascents don't involve the FA's ego, why ask THEM whether or not bolts can/should be added/replaced... rather than asking the COMMUNITY?
History and tradition I suppose. Personally I agree that the FA team does not own the stone, so they really should go with what the climbing community decides, within reason of course.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Personally I agree that the FA team does not own the stone, so they really should go with what the climbing community decides...
So long as that doesn't include retro'ing bolts to an existing climb. And as far as I'm concerned, if the FA didn't come back and add bolts within some reasonable time frame - say five or ten years - then their consenting to retro'ing an old line is just social pandering as well.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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And as far as I'm concerned, if the FA didn't come back and add bolts within some reasonable time frame - say five or ten years - then their consenting to retro'ing an old line is just social pandering as well.
So you're saying after 5 or 10 years it's ok to add chicken bolts to an existing route? That's lame weaksauce.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Interesting thread. When John Gill, Todd Gordon, Kris Solem and Kevin Worral spoke on page one, and not with one voice, I thought it would be hard to sustain any further discussion. All it shows is that we can only speak for ourselves.
John
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Damn Locker,
Ain't nobody gonna retro any of Big Moe's routes. That dude looks
like he could put the hurt on if he could catch ya!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Kev,
Joe is saying the opposite. If the FA dosen't consent to retro-bolting within that time, there should be none is what I interpret him to say.
John
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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John and Joe,
If I misinterpreted, sorry :(
kev
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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When John Gill, Todd Gordon, Kris Solem and Kevin Worral spoke on page one, and not with one voice, I thought it would be hard to sustain any further discussion.
John, my remark on page one was just a poke in fun at something in Todd's picture. Nothing more.
I've averaged about one new route / year over about 35 years climbing, hardly prolific by some folks standards. They were all done on lead. One was TR'd first (which made sense at the time) and one got a couple bolts added the next year (when my friends and I had too much common sense to lead a second ascent.) None of these routes have a bolt where gear is reasonable. Some are sport climbs and some are not.
Every one of these climbs was an adventure, and as a group they constitute the most fun of my climbing life. Ego driven? Maybe we should say that the best ego is the one having the most fun...
I've observed at times that people, usually men, who make a big point about not being driven by ego turn out to be the opposite to the extreme.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Person putting the route up may put in as many bolts as they want. If person climbing thinks bolt is not needed then they can move to the next piece of pro and make the decision again....
The question for me is at what grade should the route be safe for the common person (me). Lets use 5.5 to 5.9 for example. Everything changes when bolts are runout on a route and someone gets seriously hurt or killed. I know of one classic 5.9 route in City of Rocks where a bolt was added after this happened.
Erik
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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The question for me is at what grade should the route be safe for the common person
A mentor of mine taught me that one of the most important choices in climbing is the choice of which climb to do. Not every route is for everyone, and the concept that below a certain grade they should all be safe is not achieveable as evidenced by the number of serious accidents on "safe" sport routes.
This same mentor impressed on me the idea that in climbing success breeds success and that this search for success should help in your choice of climbs.
Then I read Mark Twights remarks to the point that when one succeeds on a serious route, one had better understand whether the succes was due to skill or luck before moving on.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Kris,
I have a great deal of admiration for the routes you did on Vayageur Rock, so don't sell yourself short. My comment, too, was a bit tongue-in-cheek -- my point being that no one will agree on this.
John
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lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
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To claim that ground up ascents aren't ego driven is amusing to me after what I've witnessed in over forty years of climbing (at the risk of sounding egotistical), some of it with some of America's best.
Sure, back in the day. In the present, when most don't care about style anymore, it's much less so. It's highly unlikey that someone will call you out for not climbing a new route GU in 2011, or even care, so why not rap in. Hey, I did that route GU, I'm a bad-ass, lol, you're more likely to get ridiculed than praised. Over the years I've learned that I quickly forget the rap bolted routes, but vividly remember the gound-up experiences. My own deal, but it's definitely not ego driven.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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It's highly unlikey that someone will call you out for not climbing a new route GU in 2011, or even care, so why not rap in
Um perhaps in some areas but in many others this is NOT the case...
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