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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 27, 2006 - 10:10pm PT
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Well, I stand corrected, then. We will, like, have to have a beer, eh?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 27, 2006 - 10:15pm PT
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Pete--
=)
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Apr 27, 2006 - 10:16pm PT
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"A" beer... think big pete... plural!
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 27, 2006 - 10:17pm PT
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OK I bet you'll never make it Pete!
There ..... now you have to go do it. Hahahaha
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 27, 2006 - 10:18pm PT
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Wow, Pete, I appreciate this post a lot!
I'm Richard.
Slater bailed due to the heat. Regarding what he thought, I'll quote a short section from the book, which was lifted from a phone call and letter he sent us (which he tried, without success, to get published in Climbing mag): "There's a lot of drilling, but there's a lot of really delicate hooking too. Especially the second pitch was very well done. The route contains the most technical hooking I've ever seen. The hooking is way harder than on the other 'hard' routes in the valley, like Lost in America or the Sea of Dreams." BTW, Slater fixed two, and then spent two days and one night getting to five. So even Slater wasn't flying up it.
The original start is the one on the right. We replaced the bolts and rivet on rappel once we had completed the entire route. We came back, reclimbed the bogus start, and rap-replaced the original pitches. Wherever possible, we reused the original holes (like if we could dig out or punch in a chopped rivet). Where that wasn't possible, we drilled new holes absolutely as close to the originals as we could, trying, for example, to get bolt hangers to cover chopped bolts. So, there is no substantive difference in the original start as replaced compared to the FA.
The number would be less than ten. I could say as few as three to five, but I'm just not sure anymore. I don't agree that leveling an edge by tapping one offending crystal off of it counts as a hole, but that's just my opinion (although that opinion has obviously been shared by the majority of famous FA teams, as many route's hole-counts demonstrate).
I'm with you on head reuse. The number you'll need will depend largely on what the current story is in the overhanging cracks above the slab. I don't know how much is still fixed up there. I'd bring 100 (mostly small) if I were you... but, of course, I'm the overkill guy. You know, 39 days and all.
You won't find any 10 hooks in a row on WoS. The trade off is that the odds of you blowing any one of them is much higher. On any established route I've done, I have yet to stand on any hook that I seriously wondered if it would blow. I wondered that a LOT on WoS. The hooking is very delicate. You will find spots where you are five hooks out (and on the second pitch, more)... AND, keep in mind that we used genuine, could-fail rivets. Our rivets are rated to 700 pounds brand new, unlike the quasi-bolts that most routes call "rivets." So, you might have three hooks, then a rivet, then four hooks, then a rivet, then four hooks again, and so on. Bottom line is: if the rivets hold your falls, then blowing hooks won't be too bad. If they don't, then you're going for a ways!
Pointed Cliffhanger is useless. Radius is much to large. Talon is better (smaller radius), but, really, you NEED to find some Leeper Narrows.
Wow, huge question. Briefly: 1) We're slow; 2) I like to get up later than Mark; 3) there was water running down the main waterstreak, which had the best features, often until 11am or even later every day; 4) we were trying to free climb everything we could (back in the days of EB shoes), which often meant waiting for the water to dry up; 5) we lost 5 days to keeping the Sabbath and at least 5 days to rain storms; 6) we fell quite a bit; 7) we're slow. Once we got to Aquarian, I think we took five days to get off, but keep in mind that we had been starving for weeks; I mean, we were really getting weak and exhausted.
The hardest pitch is definitely 2. Prolly easier after 7, but the overhanging cracks had their own excitement too. Long strings of #0 through #2 heading.
There are only bathooks on pitch 13. We had a choice on that one section, as it was totally blank: drill a rivet ladder, or use bathooks to add some excitement to the pitch. It's pretty clear that not everybody agrees that bathooks are a valid way to add excitement, but we didn't want it to be just a rivet ladder.
Right, I understand and appreciate your candor. I don't agree at this point, and, as I said, most climbs today, not to mention all of the FAs going up in the era of WoS have been done by people who, at least in practice, don't agree. I think a "hole" says something about the commitment level to be expected on a pitch, and a lightly chipped hook placement rather than a rivet in that spot certainly keeps the commitment level high. But, nothing of much substance hangs on this debate, since I think that the hole-count of a route is worse than worthless for determining its value.
I'm with you, and if you do it, I hope you find it exciting and fun.
Seriously, if you weigh like 180 when you go up, you may find more of those "few times..." and less fun. :)
Thanks again for a serious post.
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Apr 27, 2006 - 10:20pm PT
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I vote jacking. Book it.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 27, 2006 - 10:38pm PT
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Touché, Jake! What was I thinking?!
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! OK, Werner - if I do make it, how many beers will you buy me?????
Richard,
Geeeeez! I could actually feel the sweat forming on my hands reading that bit about four crumbly hook placements above twenty-five-year-old already-crappy-to-begin-with rivets!
Help John Yates! I might need to buy a ton of Scream Aids!
 the delicate technical hooking sounds pretty rad, and terrifying! The endorsement from Slater is strong
hopefully nobody has re-chopped the first pitch
tapping off a single offending crystal might indeed be semi-legit, and could conceivably not count as a "hole" - hard to say
when you say you need heads on the overhanging bit above the slab, do you mean starting around your pitch 6? I love heading! I feel super-secure on any head that I myself have placed [never pulled one yet] It's just those rusty old ones that might have me worried. [I have one of Bryan's butter knives] You'd find overhanging stuff a lot less daunting with adjustable daisies and adjustable fifis and Russian aiders. [Why climb El Cap in your aiders when you can pull yourself up with a 2:1 mechanical advantage less friction?]
do they even make Leeper Narrows any more? Do you have any I could borrow? Wouldn't it be cool for your own hooks to make the second ascent?
no doubt a second ascent would be exciting!
Thanks for your help. I'll wade through the other two threads when I get a chance, and will probably have a few more questions. I do look forward to reading your book, which I had sent to California to be there when I arrive. I didn't know if it would make it up here on time, and you know, I'd just hate to waste six bucks...
Oh yeah, when it comes to climbing "fast"? I'm all about sleeping in, dude. I even have a pocket NIV for Sunday.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 27, 2006 - 10:46pm PT
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Just to clarify, Madbolter said above (as I understand it) about the number of enhanced hooks on WoS:
The number would be less than ten. I could say as few as three to five
Yet higher up, from the part 1 thread, one of the MadBolters said:
There are many enhanced hook placements on Wings of Steel
So is it *many* or *as few as 3 to 5"???? Just want to keep it straight.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 27, 2006 - 11:21pm PT
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I vote for Pete to do it! Sounds interesting doesn't it?
and it would be your opportunity to hold a speed record on an El Cap route. One which you might even hold for years!
How else is that gonna happen?
Plus it's a second ascent..Proud.
Peace
Karl
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 27, 2006 - 11:25pm PT
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Same question to you, Karl, as to Werner!
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 27, 2006 - 11:27pm PT
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So it's set? Pete goes on Wings of Steel for the second.
I will buy you a case of beer if you make it Pete.
P.S. better start grinding hooks to a point.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 27, 2006 - 11:31pm PT
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Ooooooh! The beer is on the table. Note that Werner has merely made an offer, I have yet to accept. I am merely seeing what motivation might come my way.
Then of course I have to convince Tom and probably one other. But a 2-4 is a great start!
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Apr 28, 2006 - 01:17am PT
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BEER... from Werner? OOhh Nooaa, I might have to swoop that one from you, Pete.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 28, 2006 - 01:52am PT
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Pete, point well taken about sounding defensive. I never know where to draw the line about whether or not a particular post needs responding to, and we have caught a lot of flak for not responding, as though it seems that a non-response is taken as a punt or virtual agreement.
Anyway, Leeper Narrows. I would be willing to loan a couple for the second ascent. Of course, if they are that hard to come by, I get worried about getting them back.
Wait... who am I kidding? When will I ever use them again? I'm pushing 50 and with a pretty "trick" lower back at this point. The odds of me doing another hard big wall at this point are slimmmmmm indeed. I would like 'em back, but, you know, I won't hold my breath. I'll see if I can get ahold of Mark and get one from him, you know, split the risk a bit.
BTW, this isn't an offer to "loan" all my big wall gear out, since I prolly won't use it again. You know, just seeing the racks of it on my walls makes me feel like a real man! :)
Pics of Ring of Fire. Yeah, we've got 'em on slides. Haven't scanned 'em yet. How much interest is there? Worth the time to get 'em from Mark and scanned?
So, Pete, no beer from this end, but how about two Leeper Narrows (which is all the leader will ever need anyway)? On loan, of course.
Oh, and not to be remiss... "many" vs. "a few". Well, Mark will have to answer for himself, since I don't know what he was thinking. My speculation is as follows. We were in "hyper-honest" mode at that point, trying to disclose everything imaginable, and Mark might have been referring to EVERY time we used the pick of a hammer to even test a flake. For example, "many" times we would give the top edge of a flake a light rap downward with the pick of the hammer, just to see if it would instantly sheer off. Many of the flakes were actually detatched, with a thin layer of, like, mud between them and the rock. Often the only way to tell was with a light rap with a hammer pick. Sometimes this would break off a crystal or in some other way "modify" the flake from its utterly, untouched, hymen-intact, virginal state (ie: a microgram of rock might be dislodged).
If we're count those as "modified," then, yes, there were "many" such "modifications." What we were not doing, as the second ascent will see, is using the pick of the hammer to bash a slot into the wall, or use the pick of the hammer to intentionally make a flake better than it was. These "raps" were nothing more than seeing if a flake would instantly detach, and so I mean a very light "rap." The reason we did this instead of just trying to weight the flake is that we quickly learned that even the slightest bounce or even sideways motion on the hook supporting us would cause it to sheer. So, we quickly learned that even minimal testing was worse than worthless, as the higher hook failing would often cause the currently weight-bearing hook to fail. Yet, anything more than a very light rap wasn't necessary for the purpose of the integrity test, and more than that would damage an otherwise likely candidate.
What I call a "few" are the very rare times when we would actually intentionally slightly change a flake's shape to hold a hook that wouldn't have otherwise. Hence, my example of using the tip of the drill to pop an offending crystal off the top of an edge to make it flat as opposed to humped. In all cases, however, you will not be able to tell what was done; as I said, we weren't drilling pits or holes behind flakes and then calling them "hooks," as has been done on most of the known hard routes.
And, even if we had wanted to do a lot more modification like we did the few times, we learned in the first pitch to not even try it because the flakes wouldn't take it. Usually when we would even attempt it, the flake would simply shatter in some weird way that made it worse than before, or it would sheer off entirely. Keep in mind that these are like quarters glued to the wall--very delicate. By necessity our modifications were very rare, and then only when we felt that the risk of destroying a flake was a risk worth taking because it couldn't be used as it was, and so a drilled placement was the only alternative left. So, if there were alternative flakes within reach, we didn't bother.
But who knows what Mark was thinking? Good catch on the apparent inconsistency. I'm going to wait along with the rest of you to hear Mark's response.
I do wonder, though: has any other route been subjected to this level of scrutiny? Just asking, not defensive! :) I'll keep answering questions....
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 28, 2006 - 03:09am PT
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He said "hymen" (hahahaha!)
I would say no other route in the Valley (maybe Werner knows) has had this scrutiny. Maybe routes in other places. But then again, some of them El Cap routes and their FAists do get sh#t over the style. I think all the enhanced ie: drill holes on top of edges, are total bullshit whoever did them. A few routes are sporting these. Too many holes is always a gripe too.... not enough filled holes is a gripe. Harding took massive sh#t. Bard took sh#t.... nobody *took* a sh#t on them (except for that steamer that landed on Dale that one time in his ledge) but grumbles still continue from their antics up there. Chiseled head guys got tons of sh#t back in the day, huh Duane?? I guess we/us/them just like to fuss over stuff, sometimes for decades. You guys do take the cake though as far as I remember for "most sh#t over the longest period of time"™™™™.
Anyway, I really hope Pete does go up there. It will be like finding Nessie after all these years. Ya kinda know what lurks up there, but it is hard to tell just what it is until you get it in the boat.
What were we talking about again...?
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 28, 2006 - 03:53am PT
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What...you hit all the flakes with a hammer...there goes the free route. Vandals in the Temple!
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