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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jul 21, 2011 - 06:49pm PT
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EdBannister,
please clue me in, what is IDSA and INDEX and what are you going to tell them they are wrong about?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:04am PT
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I have been doing this for years and it works. You probably think my skills of painting are like the examples you come across and then you generalize..?
Hey, if it works, go for it. No need for the hard sell here then. I'm sure you are a master craftsman. In general, folks that paint hangers at home do a poor job of it, me included.
Rusts like the dickens?? Get the run of this discussion straight: Were talking about painting stainless steel. Reading Comprehension??
I think my reading comprehension skills are ok. You've mentioned "galvanized" surfaces on hangers with regard to your pickling process several times now, and, I wasn't aware that stainless hangers had a galvanized coating.
Think of it this way. I am substituting one coating for another and one that does better than the manufacturers as demonstrated by the test.
Your test doesn't replicate anything in the "real" world. I've not been to any area where hydrochloric acid rains down...wait a minute, I have climbed in Illinois...come to think of it, Jersey too...
Your words are cheap.
Yep, costin' about as much as your's I'd imagine.
You paint a picture of what you think the scenario is and then go on as if it were the case and then attack it. This is a straw man argument.
Really? Well, lets see, you dip brand new stainless Metolius hangers in a pickling solution, which corrodes them. How's my straw man so far? Then, you neutralize this solution, leaving the hangers etched. Good still? Then? Primer?
Seems like 300 series stainless hangers do a fair job of protecting themselves in the field. I'm not sure why you need to etch them. You are purposely corroding them. And, with a solution that contains chloride, which, is a known component of stress corrosion. I can't see that as a great idear. To think dunkin' them in a pool of acid proves your point...? I bet you look more like Ray Bolger than I do (sorry, weak attempt at humor).
You seem clueless on this.
Well, then, carry on!
Still appreciate your input.
Cheers!
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jul 22, 2011 - 08:52am PT
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Brian of SLC,
you've spent more words on this than I have.
you've assumed the brief process of dipping is like sea cliffs and then at another time you tell me the experiment is different.
"You are purposely corroding", do you ever think about rates and accumulation? Some very simple calculus.
FYI: I do this so I can camo them and get rid of the shinny reflection.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jul 22, 2011 - 11:15am PT
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"You are purposely corroding", do you ever think about rates and accumulation? Some very simple calculus.
What I'd be concerned about is the front end pitting and increasing the available surface area of the hanger, and, the off chance that the neutralization process doesn't rid the hanger of all the acid. Also, stainless steel, when it forms a surface layer of protection ala the chromium, is fairly well protected against surface corrosion.
Rate of corrosion in a dry climate would be pretty darn low, I'd imagine.
FYI: I do this so I can camo them and get rid of the shinny reflection.
Yep, me too. And, I very much appreciate that you do so.
I've just had good success with painting stainless steel hardware without any surface treatment. And, bare stainless, left in the elements, seems to dull up fairly quickly, making it very hard to see on some rock types. Some of the hangers available are already fairly dull to begin with, and, aren't shiny at all. When I see all the SMC hangers, stainless, unpainted, that have been in service for over 20 years out there, they look pretty good.
That you go the extra mile or ten is commendable.
Thanks,
-Brian in SLC
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
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Brian of SLC,
for all your erudite knowledge, here is the catch: They do not test any weaker when pulled.
Climbing areas can be like women(or men): high maintenance.
I do not envy people that live in such a regions and must put forth huge efforts to maintain their climbing areas against the elements.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:33pm PT
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for all your erudite knowledge
You got me. Nothin' but book smarts here, Dingus.
Have a great weekend.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
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Brian of SLC,
you too.
Are you testing torque, "ft-lb" in one of your pics?
Oh, does this show (your tests on old hangers) that stainless steel is not cracked up to be what the "Kid" of ST preaches?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:59pm PT
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Nope, not torque. Good catch. Fixed the caption.
Some numbers, for fun:
Hanger/lbf
Fixe 9366
Impreste 3486
Faders 8168
Mad Rock 6101
Metolius 8444
Climb Tech* 6775 (10mm test pin broke on first test at 7271)
Cheers.
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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Jul 26, 2011 - 08:51pm PT
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At the local shop today I Took a look at some Fixe hangers they had. It seems like the inner edge has been smoothed out a lot more than they used to be. Dated 2-11.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jul 26, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
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Brian, I'm curious about the bolts in your picture that were removed. They're a little rusted, but don't look that bad to me. Is it in fact a big issue? Why were they replaced?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jul 26, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
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That's a triangle with the sides being 150 + feet long, presumably. The forces generated by a rap on such an anchor are of little concern to me. For that matter rapping off a death triangle isn't much of a concern either, force wise.
DMT
I was making a joke. The ADT claim has nothing to do with the length, but the angle as it relates to force. Regardless, I have posted multiple times that I don't believe that BS on the "American Death Triangle" as an issue. We all climbed for many years on them, with the bolts only being 1/4 x 1-1/4 or 1/4" x 1-1/2 Rawl Studs, did you ever hear of a failure even when old and rusty? NO? Me either. Done, finished, inconsequential issue. It is an engineering trick question for discussion when they are bored and means nothing in the real world to real idiots....like Moi!
PS - the Yos route Anchors Aweigh doesn't count as a failure DMT. As I understand that was a poorly placed single bolt, 2 dudes jugging at the same time.
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
Jul 21, 2011 - 11:41am PT
Couch Master,
"The American Death Triangle" do you know anything about the resolution of forces in regard to strength of the bolt. "Vee dunt kneed no stin'kin veebing"
"Social Climber" huh? "Vee dunt kneed no stin'kin veebing" -well I once lived in Germany so I know that language "Kommrad", so you aren't sneaking that by me, I can read that. FACT, MY PARUNTS WER NOT LESBIAN....I think that should answer that attempt at Germanic insulting...ha ha, no need to openly display any ignorance. Besides, as a tester you are already way up there on the social ladder in my book, so "Social Climb" no more. To answer your question Dingus....hmmm, sounds Scottish there, you guys must be making up all these "Dingus" names: no sir, I saw a chart as it relates to strength and increasing forces as the angle tightens or decreases and felt it so insignificant I immediately forgot it. Think of a slackline as being the ultimate of that boring and meaningless diatribe and your picture of minimal angle being the opposite end of the spectrum. The alleged ADT doesn't have jack for forces IMUO (In My Unedumacated Opinion) LOL.
Again, I make joke. BTW, let me add, (and I don't understand your original question BTW, so forget about an answer anytime this decade on that from me -unless I accidentally just answered it with that Lesbian thing in which case it might have been intentional -jus sayin' is all, no need to get testy Tami...) I love seeing your testing. We all do. It's frigggna awesome. Ed Leeper would be proud. No joke there, actual compliment, Leeper was one of the good guys way back when. Super smart, very quality numbers and methodology. (I make some of those words up and usually get lucky but don't worry if I pull one out of my ass which is not in the dictionary, this is the internet, they'll catch up) Leepers testing reports which were often published in Summit magazine were topnotch. (Paging Steve Grossman, paging Steve Grossman)
Thanks Ed! Thanks Dingus!
Warm regards to all!
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jul 27, 2011 - 08:17am PT
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Couchmaster and Brian of SLC,
good analogy of the death triangle with nylon slack line. And for the final toner think of using steel cable instead of nylon webing but tightening it between two bolts and then rappelling. The resulting angle will be quite small generating large horizontal forces toward each bolt.
Yes, if you can get paint to stick onto some of the veneer coatings you have even more corrosion resistance.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jul 27, 2011 - 10:07am PT
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How the hell would I know Dingus #2, I'm still working on getting my speling right, once I do that I'll move on to math....figure about the time I'm 70 I'll be ass-deep to math books....but that's just trying to deflect that we both have correct points. Mine of course being the most correctest. Sorry...another non-helpful response, I know, and I've got more where that came from too. LOL
Take care!
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jul 27, 2011 - 11:36am PT
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Yeah, they look ok to me too. Surprising, given that they came from a route in American Fork, placed in limestone, that has a reputation for being fairly wet. We were jackin' out some older bolts on popular climbs and replacing with glue ins. Believe me, after pulling a few of these, I thought, geez, these look great, we're wasting our efforts here.
What's interesting also is that folks talk a bunch about mixing metals and galvanic corrosion, but, you really don't see any issues with the bolt being the sacrificial anode (no indication of any loss of material). The crag seems fairly wet at times (seepage nearby in spring), but, its a dry climate overall.
The other photo of the SMC hanger removed at the S Curves in BCC was on a route that sees a ton of hanging at the bottom crux, and, the bolt had become loose. The hanger had bent but the placement still seemed fairly ok. Bolt was in reasonable shape.
Sometimes you find out by pulling and inspecting fixed hardware that things are fine as is. And...that's...ok.
Cheers!
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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Jul 27, 2011 - 07:05pm PT
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I've seen very similar things down here in TX Limestone. This is a limited sample for me, maybe 4 bolts. The usual location of visible surface rust is the washer. The SS hanger has surface contact corrosion from the washer but it's minimal. I clean them up with some Barkeeper's helper and they're good as new. The Bolts look EXACTLY like the ones Brian has pulled. The farther down the shaft, the more corrosion you see. The cones are usually welded in the hole of course. As dry as it is down here the rock will hold ANY moisture in those holes. There's minimal corrosion on the shaft so I doubt there's much reduction in shear strength. Where I wonder (worry?) is in axial loading (in overhanging placements). There you're more dependent on the thread / cone interface where the MOST corrosion is occurring.
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couchmaster
climber
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The problem as I see it Locker is this, you don't say where you fished those 5 piece out of. Joshua Tree after 6 months? Indian Creek after 2 months? Hmmm. That makes a huge difference. Around here, the Pacific Northwet, we get more dampness than most.
Note this one very interesting characteristic of your bolts. The part that is going to sh#t will not be visible to the naked eye when placed. Around here, things go to sh#t much faster than other places. 1st thing occurs, the bolt gets locked in. Rusted shut. Most of the rust occurs where the threads end, that is also the weakest part. So you have a hex head that may have a tad of rust visible and you have 10 times that happening where you will never see it. Never. Lastly, the 3/8 5 piece anchor only has a 5/16 bolt in it. Thus, when it does go bad, it goes bad faster than you want. I don't use steel 5 piece, and suggest that to all. Probably be fine out in the desert for many years. But they seem to be ticking time bombs to me. The part exposed to the elements looks the best. Interesting, no?
Lockers 5 piece photo below:
Matt M notes that he is seeing the same thing in dry Texas.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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While I'm not a metallurgist, from my experience as mechanical engineer, mating CS and SS creates cross corrosion.
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couchmaster
climber
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Quote "While I'm not a metallurgist, from my experience as mechanical engineer, mating CS and SS creates cross corrosion."
Generally true John TP. However, use of plated steel hangers on a plated steel 5 piece bolt will lead to the same rust pattern. In fact if you look at the photo above, note that the rust isn't forming at all where the 2 dissimilar metals are touching. That is the pattern we see here, and frankly, I think I want to see it looking like trash on the surface and be perfect where I can't see it, instead of the reverse.
Any explanations for that?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Not sure if this answers the question, but when we do mate CS bolts with SS nuts (piping applications), we use a buffering washer. If the CS bolt is coated, that might be the difference. We use galvanized bolts which mitigates the cross corrosion.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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That's not Locker's photo...its mine. I removed those bolts.
I believe they were placed in 1991 and I pulled them in October of 2004.
They were at the Division Wall in American Fork Canyon, Utah.
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