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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Oct 19, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
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I agree with those that have said "no permission, no pass".
First come, first serve, azzhole.
New passing norms are not necessarily a good thing.
If I show up late, I try to find a different route, or I WAIT for the above party to be well out of the scene.
You cannot assume that everyone is cool with passing just because you think you're a big-dick, and fast, and better, and cooler.....
If the total circumstances make you think that you can get by safely, then you need permission to pass. Barreling into a slower party uninvited is asking for trouble.
I agree with The Kid, if you try to pass my party without permission, it's gonna suck to be you.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Oct 19, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
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Getting all zippy on a crowded 5.8- lame. Tough stuff should have picked a different route.
In the real world passing works itself out among reasonable folk.
Seems unlikely that the tie-off was unprovoked?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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I remember years ago me and Fosberg climbed up on Half Dome regular route thru 2 parties.
I yelled at them to stop climbing.
I even grabbed one parties rope and jugged it,
We were hauling ass.
Until we finally caught up with the third party and the then the Copper came ....
:-)
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 19, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
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Simple solution is don't get in a que on popular 5.6 routes. You KNOW there will be some super slow peeps on those routes, there always are. If you choose to join one of those goatrope rodeos anyway, then what do you expect?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2010 - 12:48pm PT
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If you choose to join one of those goatrope rodeos ...
LOL
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 19, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
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Plus nowadays they've all read on SuperTopo that you shouldn't let other climbers pass you because it's unsafe, inconvenient, untraditional, and you might have to smell their feet as they go by. And they've learned some naughty tricks for making sure it doesn't happen.
All demographics, perhaps. But stories of the aggressive behaviour of commercial climbers in other places are horrifying.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 19, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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If you're a slow party and someone comes roaring up on your heels, by all means, let them pass.
HOWEVER, don't get on one of the Red Rock classic multipitchs when there are multiple parties stacked up top to bottom and think you're going to pass and climb over everyone.
Passing someone in this type of situation is similar to the idiots on the freeway where cars are stacked to the horizon in front of you, and they roar around you into oncoming traffic to get one more place up in line.
Tieing off the rope is absolutely justifiable in that situation. or handing out a blackeye.
If you're in a hurry or got an ego to feed, go get on something a little harder or less crowded. Red Rocks is a somewhat different place to climb at then the Valley. If you're getting on Frogland 5.8, be prepared to take a number and chill, or alternately get up a little earlier since you're all aggro.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 19, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
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As our resources become more over-utilized this issue will come to the fore.
I see both sides.
Gumbies should not be able to monopolize a route.
Faster climbers are not automatically entitled to climb through and dump on those below.
How do we reconcile the two perspectives?
Simple, extend the golf analogy.
For every route we need to develop a consensus of what is "par", that is, an acceptable speed of execution, a standard rate.
If a party is keeping to that rate then another party does not get to pass unless they are given permission.
There is, of course, a gap between "theory" and enforcement.
But I sometimes climb armed, and if some asshat thinks he has the "right" to endanger me he may get a terminal surprise.
You see, on October 9, 1974 somebody cut ahead of me in Eldo (where everybody knows there is no rockfall), and pulled off a rock that nearly killed me and put me in a wheelchair.
As they say, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
And if I DO get judged by 12 you can be sure that they are gonna see all the tricks I can do in a wheelchair before they judge me.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 19, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
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To funny, Dingus!
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10b4me
Ice climber
Happy Boulders
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Oct 19, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
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Back in 2002(?), Karla and I were climbing Tunnel Vision. We were first on the route. We were on the ledge just before the Tunnel hanging out, and having lunch. We noticed a girl, and guy below us on the crux pitch when all of a sudden they were passed by a party of three. When the party of three got to the belay, one of them decided to take a piss on the party they had just passed.
wtf
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Oct 19, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
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There are a number of entirely justifiable reason for a party not to want another party ahead of them, reasons that have to do with the health and welfare of the party that was, after all, there first, and may well have gotten their first precisely to avoid having others overhead.
One of the things I think climbers believe is that they have a lot of control over the risks they choose to take. It's almost an axiom of climbing. When a party passes yours and climbs directly above you, they may, in some cases, be imposing risks you never had any intention of choosing. In addition to rockfall and dropped objects, there is the potential to be hit by a falling climber as well as a host of bad things that can happen with commingled ropes. I think more or less every bad thing one can think of has actually happened, and Ron's experience makes it clear that the outcomes need not be trivial.
Faster parties may have chosen to embrace a number of risks that they then, in the process of passing, impose on the slower parties. I don't climb armed, but I can understand the feeling that another party is putting you at risk. In such cases, tying them off might seem a lot more like justifiable self-defense then abject azzholery.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Oct 19, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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Years ago, Jean Ruwitch suffered a serious head injury in this fashion. She and her partner, climbing the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral, were passed (over their objections) by another party that, several pitches higher, kicked off a large rock with no warning. It hit Jean on the head.
As I recall the story, the rock-kickers kept climbing, offering no help and taking no responsibility for the major rescue that brought Jean down unconscous but still alive. I believe she subsequently sued them, receiving an out-of-court settlement.
Perhaps Werner or others can add details.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Oct 19, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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Nice post rgold and chiloe.
Spartacus, I was called out on that rescue, but ended up sitting in the meadow until she landed...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 19, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
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The Ruwitch incident had a strong influence on my views on the subject and serves as an excellent example of why people have no right to assume that they have a right to pass.
A friend was on the Walker Spur and watched a rude party pass them even yarding on their rope and gear. One then pulled off a huge rock that nearly hit him.
He then watched in horror as the rock hit a party below knocking them from the wall and killing them.
A passing protocol is something that needs to be addressed by our community, but it likely won't happen until somebody gets shot.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Oct 19, 2010 - 03:43pm PT
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we had a rest day in moab last week. Thought we'd try to get lucky, pull the third shift on Ancient Art. Figured there was a chance we'd get shut down, but hiked up there anyway.
There was a party of 6 on the route. One leader. Five ropes. one 12 year old. two chicks who had never seen the outside of the gym.
WTF? Who takes 5 noobs up a 4 pitch route where you have to rap the route?
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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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Oct 19, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
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There's no mention of falling rocks, gear or hazard caused by the passing party, so the people tying a knot in the rope are asses.
There's this American tendency to stake a claim to whatever public space someone is in and then think of it as "Mine, all mine!" This was maybe once cool when on the frontier, but it ain't like that anymore. Get out of the left lane unless you're passing at that moment. Work with traffic on the road and routes. It's all public space. In Europe and most other places it's just expected that slower parties are gonna get passed, and that slower people will stay out of the left lane, and that it's not even remotely worth getting some sort of road rage on when someone blows it. In fact, if you blow it on the road in Europe the person who avoided the wreck is cool, and you're an idiot, and everybody knows it, no road rage... But in the USA people drive slower than traffic in the left lane and get bent when passed on routes; these attitudes go together and come from the same place I think.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 19, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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There was a party of 6 on the route. One leader. Five ropes. one 12 year old. two chicks who had never seen the outside of the gym.
WTF? Who takes 5 noobs up a 4 pitch route where you have to rap the route?
Welcome to Utah!
I'd be surprised if they all had harnesses, much less rappel/belay devices.
Those folk seem fairly common in the Tetons, too. Big party, one designated leader, TR's for the followers, on every pitch of the Exum on the Grand for example. Nutty.
Friends a few years back ran into a very large party in Idaho who had three TR's set up on a three pitch route, with in place belayers on every pitch, and, folks running around at the base, all sharing just a couple of harnesses. They asked to play through and were denied. So, they did anyhow. Shared some very unkind words with those folks too, who told them they were going to report them to the Salt Lake climbers and they'd be banned at their local crag. More pointy bad language towards them. Too funny.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Oct 19, 2010 - 04:55pm PT
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When I think of climber etiquette and safety, I seldom turn to Europe for examples.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 19, 2010 - 04:59pm PT
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not really the same thing, but I took my sister to Joshua tree on sunday and we saw that Toe Jam was unoccupied, so I grabbed the pack and started walking towards it. Just as we got to The Cave a guy with a pack on jogged right by me... weird, right? Then he was followed by his three small children (helmets, harnesses and shoes) and his wife. He stood sheepishly at the base of the route, having squeeked by a few seconds ahead of us by literally RUNNING past.
I have had a lot of those ones, too. People RUNNING past you on the approach, especially in Tuolumne, only to gas out after 10 minutes because they maybe aren't what they think they are.
The best example of the above was the first time I did Tenaya peak, with my 56 year old mum. We had on approach shoes, a rack of stoppers, slings and a liter of water. At the parking lot was a kinda scraggly looking couple, with heavy, heavy packs. Had to have been 40 pounds each.
As we bushwhack up the approach they would constantly cut right in front of us, and several times I told mom to just hang out and let them get ahead... but once they were far enough ahead of us they would take a rest break and start sprinting once we caught up. Anyway, they were pretty gassed by the end of it, and we were good hikers, so we nonchalantly found a good place to rope up. As I throw the rope on the ledge they doggedly scramble 15 feet above us and start maniacally flaking out the rope. I toss one end to Mum and just start soloing, when it comes tight I tell her to start climbing. One belay changeover and just over an hour later we topped out. The other party hadn't even started.
So just goes to show you... even a 56 year old grandma can smoke you on your route.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Oct 19, 2010 - 05:10pm PT
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I've had someone run past me before, in friggen Sedona of all places. The guy even complained about us on the way by, saying with no sense of irony, that we should have chosen some other climb.
Anyway, they beat us to the route and the guy wigs out on the first pitch, puts in a bunch of gear, bails, and asks us to retrieve it for him! I climbed up to his anchor, pulled his pieces and threw the whole mess into the brush 100 ft. below.
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