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Wholly Mammoth
Social climber
The question is: where do I want to be?
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Nov 17, 2005 - 05:03pm PT
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Jody,
I admire your guts!
It is hypocritical (of the left) to declare that they "support our troops" while lambasting the military's objective -- the ugly truth any historian would agree with is that there would be no peace without war. Luckily, the military rises to the occassion with honor, so people like us can post our opinions on open forums. We must back them 100 percent, and stop the media circus giving our troops a bad name.
2 -- first cousins Iraq
Brother -- Afghanistan
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 17, 2005 - 05:10pm PT
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If Bush wasn't lying about the WMDs, why did his and Cheney's right hand men go out of their way to stick it to Wilson and his wife for proclaiming the Nigerian uranium evidence was bogus?
peace
Karl
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Wholly Mammoth
Social climber
The question is: where do I want to be?
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Nov 17, 2005 - 05:18pm PT
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2 Clintons, Albright and a Kennedy can't be wrong...
Besides, ask Jay Rockefeller where the WMDs are. Syria?
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 17, 2005 - 05:24pm PT
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"We must back them 100 percent, and stop the media circus giving our troops a bad name. "
Who is giving the troops a bad name? Bush made this stupid decision to wage war--not the troops. I haven't seen any criticism directed towards them; only the Bush administration and some members of Congress who supported the decision.
Perhaps you should read Tofu's posts above.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Nov 17, 2005 - 05:41pm PT
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the ugly truth any historian would agree with is that there would be no peace without war.
So, if there was no war, then we wouldn't have peace. We'd have... What, exactly?
Can you really not see how perfectly wrong by semantics that statement is?
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Wholly Mammoth
Social climber
The question is: where do I want to be?
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Nov 17, 2005 - 06:01pm PT
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The problem is not with war, but with human nature. Religion, land, power... struggles that lead to war. What was WWII Forest? Think of this cycle: war-peace-war. By saying there would be no peace without war, I meant exactly that. Try to think of a period of "peace" that is not linked to a period of war...
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Nov 17, 2005 - 06:06pm PT
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Any of you war loving individuals out there that are under 36 years of age and can pass a physical need to sign up or shut up.
Put your ass where your mouth is... oops its already there!
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2005 - 06:11pm PT
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Samsara
by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the author.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright © 2002 Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Access to Insight edition © 2002
For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Samsara literally means "wandering-on." Many people think of it as the Buddhist name for the place where we currently live — the place we leave when we go to nibbana. But in the early Buddhist texts, it's the answer, not to the question, "Where are we?" but to the question, "What are we doing?" Instead of a place, it's a process: the tendency to keep creating worlds and then moving into them. As one world falls apart, you create another one and go there. At the same time, you bump into other people who are creating their own worlds, too.
The play and creativity in the process can sometimes be enjoyable. In fact, it would be perfectly innocuous if it didn't entail so much suffering. The worlds we create keep caving in and killing us. Moving into a new world requires effort: not only the pains and risks of taking birth, but also the hard knocks — mental and physical — that come from going through childhood into adulthood, over and over again. The Buddha once asked his monks, "Which do you think is greater: the water in the oceans or the tears you've shed while wandering on?" His answer: the tears. Think of that the next time you gaze at the ocean or play in its waves.
In addition to creating suffering for ourselves, the worlds we create feed off the worlds of others, just as theirs feed off ours. In some cases the feeding may be mutually enjoyable and beneficial, but even then the arrangement has to come to an end. More typically, it causes harm to at least one side of the relationship, often to both. When you think of all the suffering that goes into keeping just one person clothed, fed, sheltered, and healthy — the suffering both for those who have to pay for these requisites, as well as those who have to labor or die in their production — you see how exploitative even the most rudimentary process of world-building can be.
This is why the Buddha tried to find the way to stop samsara-ing. Once he had found it, he encouraged others to follow it, too. Because samsara-ing is something that each of us does, each of us has to stop it him or her self alone. If samsara were a place, it might seem selfish for one person to look for an escape, leaving others behind. But when you realize that it's a process, there's nothing selfish about stopping it at all. It's like giving up an addiction or an abusive habit. When you learn the skills needed to stop creating your own worlds of suffering, you can share those skills with others so that they can stop creating theirs. At the same time, you'll never have to feed off the worlds of others, so to that extent you're lightening their load as well.
It's true that the Buddha likened the practice for stopping samsara to the act of going from one place to another: from this side of a river to the further shore. But the passages where he makes this comparison often end with a paradox: the further shore has no "here," no "there," no "in between." From that perspective, it's obvious that samsara's parameters of space and time were not the pre-existing context in which we wandered. They were the result of our wandering.
For someone addicted to world-building, the lack of familiar parameters sounds unsettling. But if you're tired of creating incessant, unnecessary suffering, you might want to give it a try. After all, you could always resume building if the lack of "here" or "there" turned out to be dull. But of those who have learned how to break the habit, no one has ever felt tempted to samsara again.
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Wholly Mammoth
Social climber
The question is: where do I want to be?
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Nov 17, 2005 - 06:11pm PT
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The media circus is reference to the constant harping of the abuse scandals. The focus is directed at a very small percent of troops representing the U.S. military, but it is the way that the media retrenches it, that provides an image portaying "many" of our troops as acting out of conduct. It's one thing to disagree with the war, but it is another for the liberal slanting media to use our troop's images as scapegoats for thier agenda. Additionally, the media's unfavorable viewpoints are heard by our soldiers, and they are disgusted by it. I can speak for three active duty soldiers from the Navy, Marines, and Army. Nuff said...
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Nov 17, 2005 - 06:13pm PT
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Well, if the Iraq war actually had any justification at all other than some Dictator that tried to kill W's Daddy (and a desire to be a "wartime president") then maybe that argument would have some traction.
But to equate our invasion of a country that posed no direct threat to us or our allies with WWII is a pretty damned big stretch.
So, you've still not answered my question. If without war you wouldn't have peace, what would you have?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2005 - 06:14pm PT
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 17, 2005 - 07:45pm PT
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Yeah, I agree with Jody on this point. It always seemed like they had some kind of political partnership instead of a conventional marriage. They probably hadn't even done the deed since Chelsea was conceived.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 17, 2005 - 07:59pm PT
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Ya'll should probably at least know something about how they met and got together before too much smack talk about their marraige.
They have a serious connection that goes way beyond politics. It's just that Bill is a horn-dog. So was Kennedy
Make love not war
karl
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 17, 2005 - 08:09pm PT
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But Karl, if we had all the facts straight, how much fun would rampant rumormongering and baseless speculation be?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 17, 2005 - 08:35pm PT
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Jody wrote: I think you are mistaken about their marriage if you think it was anything but a marriage for convenience. She wasn't going to "leave" him for any reason because it would hurt her political advancement. It was an arranged marriage from the start.
Jody- where is your source for this. WTF are you talking about?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 17, 2005 - 10:13pm PT
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Historically speaking, both male and female world leaders have had either publicly acceptable or discreet access to whatever they needed to keep them sated on the sexual front. The Clinton scandal says as much about the staying power of our lingering puritan roots as it does about Clinton or the folks that hounded him over an issue from his private life. Around our house we joke about "who's giving the executive blow jobs?", because in most high stakes, high pressure situations, someone better be...
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 17, 2005 - 10:14pm PT
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They slept in separate beds too. Not getting it on is one thing, but sleeping apart suggests a chilly relationship.
Not that I really care.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 17, 2005 - 11:36pm PT
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There you go again my gullible Lois buddy. Jody may or not be "extraordinarily" attractive, but, to my knowledge, no actual image of him has ever appeared on this site. (although fraudulent ones have)
Picture Tom Delay or Judge Roberts and you have a pretty good image of Jody. Good lookin for sure, but teenagers don't scream until he turns on the flashing lights.
Peace
karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 17, 2005 - 11:37pm PT
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Lois wrote: I don't know whether or not their (the Clintons) relationship is or is not "chilly" but I can tell you from personal experience, separate bedrooms is absolutely NO marker of that.
Lois
Lois would know the status of Ward and June Cleaver love life...I think they slept in separate bedrooms?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 18, 2005 - 12:19am PT
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Is this part of 700 club hour?
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