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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 26, 2010 - 03:14pm PT
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Apogee wrote: "We will just have to wait and see how each of these organizations respond to the needs of the industry."
It sounds as though you and Doug and others have pretty well described how the various organizations have responded to the "needs of the industry," at least up to this point. It also sound like the AMGA made the classic mistake of trying to legislate to the industry where their needs actually lie, which discounted the crucial need for some kind of top rope certification - top roping being far and away the most common "guiding" or learning scenario. But this isn't really "guiding" so much as it's basic teaching - an "expert" teaching less experienced folks practical techniques.
That much said, I think there is a future in teaching, which attracts big numbers, while actual professional "guiding" seems to be a far less popular and vastly less profitable activity. The beginners pay the bills in any adventure sport venue. I wouldn't expect the market to change much in that regards.
JL
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 26, 2010 - 03:43pm PT
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I think the exponential proliferation of top-rope climbing is one of the single worst aspects of modern climbing instruction. In the years that I guided, I'm proud to say that I never once set up a top-rope (with the belayer on the ground) for a client.
My client's first experience was an easy but multipitch climb to the top of the crag. They had to stand on ledges and belay, take out anchors and protection pieces, and enjoy the increasing exposure and views out over the valley, as well as the hike back from the top. I felt that in this way the clients experienced a bit of what I thought real climbing was all about, and if it turned out that they didn't like the full experience, then quite possibly climbing wasn't really for them.
Mostly my clients came back, but not always, and I consider the screening of those few to be a service to a climbing community that was already overcrowded thirty years ago. Unfortunately, guides and guide services need all the clients they can get, and so have taken to doing everything possible to ensure they come back.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Apr 26, 2010 - 06:48pm PT
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To Mr. Ryan Kelly,
so it seems you have entered the political hornets nest of the guide world..... Before I address any of that stuff let me share what I know about guiding and the guide lifestyle.....
I am 34 years old and have been professionally guiding for 13 years. I have worked in terrain throughout the northern Rockies, Eastern sierra, southern Spain, Joshua tree, and Peru.I guide aprox. 200 days per year. I am a career guide and quite successful.... I make between 20 and 25k per year!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not here for the money....... I am not willing to live inside the confinements of standard American society, guiding allows me the freedom to live a life with out all the superficial stress and traffic that most Americans deal with daily.... That being said...... It's not just a job, it's a unique lifestyle with many "sacrifices".
As far as training goes I believe it is a must!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Many techniques we use in guiding you would never use in a recreational setting. You are a single individual, but because of your position as the guide you are completely responsible for the safety, actions, decisions, and outcomes of the day for all of the people involved. We put ourselves in the position of responsibility for people's well-being in an unfamiliar, technical, and high-risk setting. It makes sense that we have a high degree of training, mentorship, and experience to take on this responsibility. And if you are good at your job, not only will the people be safe, but they'll have a good time!!!!!!!!!!!! Lots involved with being a good guide.......
As to the rock instructor course you will learn a lot!!!!!!!!!! I took my Rock instructor course in 2000 with the infamous Alan Jolley. Changed my life. Previously I was a rock climber who worked as a guide, post course I had the skills to operate as a professional guide. Even if you never guide, the course will make you a faster, more efficient climber. That being said the A.M.G.A is not your only option. P.C.G.I offers a Multi-Pitch guide course as well. At this time unfortunately the P.C.I.A does not, but hopefully that will change.
To me, Training is far more important than certification. Drives me crazy when I see untrained, unprofessional rock climbers guiding and making poor choices with their clients. While the A.M.G.A has been the sole provider of guide training and certification for the past 20+ years, this is no longer true. Many of us have been unsatisfied with that organization and have chosen to become involved with other alternatives. This is because there are many ways to skin a cat and while we often become dogmatic and entrenched in the cultures of our organizations, there need to be alternatives that suit the diverse needs of the guiding world. Most people are never going to become IFMGA guides, that is a highly elite pool of individuals. However, the realities of guiding in the United States are considerably different. Most guides in the USA are not IFMGA certified, and they don't need to be. I love guiding rock climbing, I have no interest in guiding mixed mountain routes. There is a place for well-trained, grade III or below rock climbing guides and there is a large demand for training at that level. Competition breeds innovation and higher standards and there is both demand for and room for several guide training organizations in the United States!!!!!! Me personally, as long as my clients are safe and happy, the opinions of International Guiding Organizations have little bearing on my day to day operations.
For the record this is my first ever ST post, I had to open an account..... Internet arguments are pretty stupid. However I just cant believe the slander in this thread. Doug N., please try to think before you type. Doug R you the man!!!!!!!!!!!!! Warner..... You're just ornery!!!! Apogee, don't think I know you, but I like you....Dave Lane..... Questionable. Me, questionable as well.....
Trying hard to not slander or get in the political morass but you do have options........ I encourage you to research all your options!!!!!!!!!! If I can be of any more help to you please feel free to email me, guiding's rad!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seth Zaharias
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 10:18am PT
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Seth,
Was my spelling poor? or what ?
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:56am PT
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Doug your spelling was great!!!!!!!!!!!!! But would Flanders slander????? If you would like to have a real conversation (I wont waste my time arguing, this ST thing is already taking enough) I would love to chat on the phone with you about how we can help fix the disjointed guide world. Why cant we all just get along?????
Seth Zaharias
PCGI Certified Multi-pitch Guide
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apogee
climber
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
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"Internet arguments are pretty stupid. However I just cant believe the slander in this thread."
"Doug N., please try to think before you type." "Dave Lane..... Questionable."
"Trying hard to not slander or get in the political morass..."
"Why cant we all just get along?????"
Seth, your point of view is useful in this discussion as one of the key players in the PCGI. They will tend to be less valued, though, when you (in the same post) exclaim how pointless and slanderous these arguments are, and then go right on and slander others.
You have every right to your position, and to disagree with others. How you communicate this has great bearing on how productive the discussion can be, and the impression you create to others. Just a little beta from one outdoor professional to another.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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rgold, your clients are lucky to have that multi-pitch intro to climbing, but I'm afraid it is not too realistic. Even with 2-3 of them on your rope, it is still a pretty expensive day compared to joining a toprope group lesson for under $100.
Toproping by the dozen at maybe a 6:1 ratio has to be far and away the most normal intro to outdoor climbing. So it makes sense to train and certify instructors especially for that. The students get better served too, in my opinion, with you on the ground at the elbow of the belayer (I call that "loitering with intent") and coaching the climber with a better view of him/her than is afforded looking down from a belay ledge. Then you segue to the next belayer-climber pair, etc. It can be lively and fun and the students help each other by example and in words.
Sometimes I'll design the situation so that top roping proceeds (good empowerment for apprentice guides there too) and I will peel off two students at a time for a 2-hour multi-pitch. Ideal if the two venues are within sight of each other.
My favorite venue for this, Fresno Dome, has a campsite by the Dome with a half-mile approach. Short enough to carry in coolers and Coleman stoves, but removed from car camping so that the first-time real rock weekend becomes also a baby-step into wilderness.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Apr 27, 2010 - 01:58pm PT
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Apogee,
you are correct..... My comments were a bit aggressive and argumentative , again that is not my intention...... Sore nerves, I apologize to both Doug N. and Dave lane!!!!!!!!!
I give all of you my word that my intentions are good!!!!!!!!!! If you have any Specific PCGI questions please feel free to ask. If a long conversation is in order I would prefer to do this over the phone(or in person) which is a medium I am much more comfortable with.
All for positive, open, healthy communication.
Thank you, Seth
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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Apr 27, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
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WOW......
Well with the AMGA........your either one of them.........
Or your just a climber........
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 27, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
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Coz is right on that.
Sorry, I've been monitoring but have been up in Ogden with Connie and Jeff working on the video.
If the money WAS there (and it could be if certification was mandatory) then the expense of proper training would not be such an issue and we wouldn't have to compete with punters who would take next to nothing to PLAY the "great leader".
I was among the first 10 guides to take the AMGA rock exam in 1990 after having participated for years in the formulation of the curriculum.
I found that having done so I became a better guide and climber.
I have also found that with my guide's certificate and $3.50 I can get a coffee at Starbuck's.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 27, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
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"I pay my guides 500 a day plus pre diem and hotel."
Sounds like you run your own guide service, coz. How about a little background:
Who is your typical clientele? What kind of climbing do your guides typically provide? Where do you operate? How many clients per year are you serving? Do you have an established business with a Federal Tax ID#, general liability insurance, etc? Are your guides paid as employees (with payroll taxes, worker's comp) or are they independent contractors? Do you provide all of the equipment, or are your guides responsible for this?
These aren't goading questions, they are quite serious, and would help to put your comment into context.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 27, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
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I don't think Coz can either confirm nor deny the vagueness of the identities of his clients.
(I smell obamabucks)
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apogee
climber
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Apr 27, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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"My point is the money is out there, you guys are more cut throat than anyone in Hollywood."
Cool your jets, coz, no-one is looking to steal your clients (at least I'm not). I agree with you, though, that the outdoor industry does undercut itself, and would benefit from an across-the-board increase in participation rates. The market has become quite accustomed to the going rate that providers have established ('cutting each others throats' is not far from the truth). The customer didn't establish those rates...the providers did.
That said, there are certainly specialized clienteles who will pay very good money for guiding services. Hollywood/advertising, military/government contracting...these can be quite lucrative if you a) have a name or reputation that precedes you; and b) have an inside contact. Even with these advantages, though, that specialized market is very, very small. And they are not regular events, either, for most programs.
BTW, my experience with Hollywood/advertising has not been great- several of the events I have been involved with were too frenetic, erratic, and chaotic for my tastes. Most of the time I turn them away unless they can show me the money right up front, and play the way I want to play.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 08:10pm PT
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Scott Cosgrove (aka Coz) sez: "The AMGA and others have tried to cut my rate by every base tatic known to man."
OK Coz, you make this blanket statement sound as if the AMGA national office/organization has contacted you, twisted your arm, etc. to cut your rates? Say What ? I'll say it, Bullshit Coz. I just spoke to the AMGA's executive director (as in today) and they did not even know your name, let alone any attempt to control your business practices. So what's up with the BS dude? Is there
something you don't like about training? Working together? Helping future guides develop into
professionals ? Spit it out, let's hear it....what's the beef
Pay your guides 500/day plus per diem and Hotel? That great for the few guides that get those
Navy Seal contracts, but you'd have to admit that is not Ma and Pa Kettle out for a day of climbing
in Josh, or Yosemite. You make it sound like that ought to be the norm, well we'd all like it and I agree that guides working together towards to goal of making the guiding career a revered and supportable profession is a good thing.
Re your arrogance,; I don't think I'm alone in recognizing this, as it seems to come out in many of your posts. It seems so un-necessary as everyone knows of your skill on the rock, and many here would agree that you are certainly one of the more talented of our generation. You don't need to flight/strive for recognition, you've made your statement on Southern Belle, The Muir, and a host of hard lines elsewhere. Relax dude, life can be less stressful if you seek to make it so.
Doug
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 28, 2010 - 10:49am PT
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A striking illustration of the severe undervaluing of current guiding fees is that the $120 I got for a single client 30 years ago is, with adjustment for inflation (U.S. Price Inflation CPI-U, Annual Average) about $350 today. Two clients for $200 back then would be about $590 today. That's for a day of cragging in the Gunks, not a big wall or even a grade III or a mountain excursion.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Apr 28, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
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"The AMGA has attack and bad mouth me and tried to win contracts by under-cutting."
Coz, it's easy to make statements that can't be backed up. You keep referring negatively to
the AMGA yet offer no confirming commentary, data, etc. You haven't bought into the slander coming from some of those PCGI guys have you, and that without checking it for yourself. I know you are smarter than that.
Like I said before a gifted climber like you should not need to seek recognition as much as it
appears that you do. Your FA's and repeats clearly stand as testimony.
Doug
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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Apr 28, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
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Fight!
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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Apr 28, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Apr 28, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
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Good one slobmonster !
Coz, my goal is not to be attacking anyone here. Everyone has their own thoughts on these
topics, and each can hold to their thoughts/beliefs as they see fit. I will though, go after what I know to be dishonest statements and seek clarification and/or documentation if appropriate.
I jumped into this discussion as a person with intimate 1st hand knowledge of the AMGA
programs/organization AND a good bit of knowledge re: the fringe certification groups as
I know all of the players and have seen all of them in the field at one time or another. There is
allot of mis-information posted here re: the AMGA, which I support, and see no reason why
anyone seeking the facts would be offended when these are presented, UNLESS they have
some agenda that has not come to light in these discussions.
Doug
If this turns into a cage match: I got dibs on Walleye as a partner
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peter croft
climber
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Apr 28, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
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Just read this thread - Wow! I'm not clued into the user/code names so I don't know who Flanders is but Geez, calling Scott Cosgrove a liar? I know you based it on a conversation with AMGA's executive director (and executives never lie) who claimed to not know Scott's name but later on you say that "everyone knows your skill on rock...". So which is it? The exec is completely out of touch with American climbing or (gasp!) he wasn't being truthful.
I've known Scott since way back and even when I've disagreed with him I've never had reason to doubt his word.
The history of the AMGA is more...um... colorful. From two of their longtime member guides I found out that the AMGA initially promised concerned guides that they would never work towards having non member guides banned from any climbing areas - and if it did happen they would then disband.
Guess what happened?
This came into clear focus for me when, after years of guiding in Josh, I was banned from doing so in the future - unless I paid the AMGA a hundred bucks. Now I'm not saying that this was a blatant form of "protection" money - but I am dropping a pretty heavy hint.
No matter what, their urgent call for professionalism and safety for all would have carried more weight had I not met, on that same trip, a certified AMGA toprope instructor with 6 months climbing experience.
So, if I had to choose who to trust in general and who to believe in this case - I'd choose Scott, both times.
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