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skychild
Trad climber
Birmingham, Alabama
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:04pm PT
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Wes,It's so f'n easy, don't bolt cracks, period... no relativity, just good traditional manners. Of coarse not all bolts should be removed, don't be ridicilou Wes, be realistic and mature. You are an adult aren't you. I think you don't really believe what you say, you're just trying to rile people up. Bolting cracks takes away at least 1/3rd of the fun and challenge. If a route that offers no protection is bolted, fine. I didnt hear anyone who wants to remove all the bolts on all the routes, we're not in England. The only bolts mentioned were those around protectable cracks. Take a break fromj this site, think about what you want to say and come back when you're not so bi-polar. To bolt or not to bolt. You can't be for both, I respect you, and your insighful input, but get it together man. Keep the love.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:07pm PT
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Apogee, Skipt can't put his gun back in the closet right now. He's at St@rbucks. Alright, Skipt, I'm just poking fun at you too, I'll delete the comment if it bugs you.
Wes, glad I could help open your eyes. You mislead yourself though when you equate bolting next to cracks to the distance between bolts on a face climb. Some actions done in any way are just wrong. There is no "relatively" OK way to bolt a protectable crack. Bolting face routes has been around and universally accepted for longer than you or me.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
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I did not say that those who I know are the only ones making the decision. The bolts are still there, yet they are certain to be removed at some point if not by Norweegie.
Hopefully the FA will be notified and something will get worked out. Well that's a nice suggestion but the reality is the wheel has been turning on this one well before it showed up in this thread.
Those routes went up without notifying the "Community". A little research would have shown that the routes had been established for years prior.
I guess the notion of doing "Homework" before bolting is out of the question as well?
Those bolts will not show up again.
Mucci
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skychild
Trad climber
Birmingham, Alabama
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:13pm PT
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Wes, "not all bolts should be removed" how is that relative, please explain.
How would you descend from a rock formation that afforde no "natural" rappel anchors. Down climb perhaps, base jump, sit up there and die from a lack of gumbtion. Wake up.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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Yep, I was right, I know who bolted these routes.
You can express your concerns yourself to the people involved by clicking over to this site.
http://hwy50climbing.com/sglfleftoverbun.aspx
Here you will find route beta, a picture topo of the routes in question and a link to "contact" the person who bolted the routes.
You can now express your concerns to him personally.
Please keep in mind. The guy who put these routes in has done alot for the climbing community in the Hwy 50 corridor, is reasonable, respectful and one hell of a nice guy. Please try and be the same.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:21pm PT
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"It is all relative."
No, it really isn't. Here, lemme help you out. I'm going to use my comment from above, but with a few words changed. I'm changing them to help you see a point, not to insult you, Wes, and also not to imply anything about anyone. I'll change a few words and put the changes in brackets.
This is what I said originally: There is no "relatively" OK way to bolt a protectable crack. Bolting face routes has been around and universally accepted for longer than you or me.
Here it is changed: There is no "relatively" OK way to [have sex with a minor]. [Having sex with women] has been around and universally accepted for longer than you or me.
If you really think "it is all relative," do us all a favor and take up bowling. Certain things are just flat wrong. Climbing is artificial challenge and danger. It is a recreation. And as such it involves a few (very few) immutable principles. One of those is that you take the rock as it is. Don't chip it. Don't put bolts on a route in a situation where the bolts are purely, only for convenience. Don't change the medium to bring the route down to your level.
Bolted face climbs (even closely bolted ones) don't fit within that parameter.
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xbrit
Social climber
Palisade,CO
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
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I am not in the least surprised at the bolting of climbs that have natural protection. The whole climbing scene has changed over the last few years. It seems most climbers now start on the indoor climbing walls and want to mantain that ulta safety... if and when they leave their gym for the outdoors. At one time rock climbing was a risk sport ,and some sort of guts was required... For the vast majority of "climbers" this is no longer the case,and this "No Risk Involved" is heavly promoted by both the so called top sport climbers and of course the magazines with their professional photographers in hot pursuit of the latest one finger pull up,with the dramatic fall potential of under 10'...and the more overhung the climb even less pain..One just need to look at the point system addicts on MountainProject.com , and see the dozens of posted 12'to 30' bolted and even so called trad routes of the same lenth. One can hope one of these days bouldering and Sport Routes etc can be totally seperated from traditional rock climbing that requires at least some mental commitment..but I doubt it.
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skychild
Trad climber
Birmingham, Alabama
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:23pm PT
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Chad, That would have been a nice way to deal with past actions, I hope you offer all, the same of level of respect, in the future. Peace Don
Wes yur so smart, I can't compete with yur advanced intellect. Yur right, a bolt's neccessity is relative.The relativity lies in whether or not the rock offers natural protection. I guess all anchor bolts on multi-pitch climbs could be removed and thus requiring extra natural gear for the belay. But the authors, or latter parties, in their generosity, actually thought about the climbing community and enstalled for convenience sake, the anchor that present parties enjoy, and over time bolts get replaced to meet modern standards. I've heard very vfew complaints about bolted anchors, only the bolts that are actually on the climb in question and whether or not it distacts from the overall experience. Peace don
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:40pm PT
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Thanks for the link, Salmanizer. At your suggestion, I checked it out. I was pretty bummed to read, from their site:
"Likewise, we believe the chimney has been done in the past and any name for that route would replace the name we chose."
If I read their site right, they not only bolted a protectable crack, they also did this knowing it had already been climbed by someone else. Maybe I'm just reading un-artful writing. But if I'm not, when did it become OK to add bolts to a route that was already done without them by someone else?
Wow, tlak about taking things down to your level. Let's bolt The Nose. I've always heard that not bolting over other people's route is one of those immutable principles. That is, it is just always flat wrong. I'll take you at your word that these are nice people, but it doesn't mean that they aren't grossly misguided.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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Hey Wes, I didn't take an opinion and compare it to a law. I took one of the longest-standing principles in all of climbing-dom and compared to a long-standing principle of our civilization. I did it to make a point. Maybe you got the point, it's hard to tell.
And this isn't an iffy situation where the crack "might" have been protectable. Unless, that is, Norwegian is just lying to us. Your attempt to make this a "relative" argument is hollow.
So what is your "opinion," or did you dispense with opinions along with ethics? Is it OK to bolt next to a protectable crack? Would you accept a bowling ball if I paid for it and shipped it to you for free?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:48pm PT
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Thanks for the link Sal.
What were you saying Wes? Left or right side in?
Blatant disregard for ethics. Rap/retro bolted and posted for the "Public" to see.
Mucci
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 11, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
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Don't forget the chiseled holds;)
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
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i've lined up a loner coordless grinder from a companero.
i'll remove the hangers and nuts, and just grind the studs off.
then i'll patch it back with some epoxy compound.
i've no use for the hangers. donate? return to sender? leave in a pile at base and defecate upon?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 11, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
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Wes: THE FA PARTY SHOULD AT LEAST BE CONTACTED BEFORE REMOVING THE BOLTS.
Um, the FA party should have been contacted BEFORE the bolts went in.
Um, no, that's wrong. The bolts should have NEVER gone in. The climb is 5.8, and can be protected, and (as has been established in this thread), has seen clean ascents for years.
Rock is a resource that we all share. Ever since bolts were first used to protect climbs, climbers have realized that their use can be abused. Obviously, there is a gray line about when bolts can, and should, be used.
However, it has been the climbing community's ethos that you should not bolt cracks that can be protected, especially in areas that are historically "traditional."
The Bozos that bolted this crack should admit they made a mistake and remove the bolts. Making it so that somebody else has to clean up their poop is dishonorable.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Apr 11, 2010 - 07:38pm PT
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K-man, I wanted to quote the best part of your post... but it's all spot on. Nicely said.
Wes, I figured you'd avoid the question. It's an old trick to answer a question with a different topic. I've questioned (and been avoided) by better than you: It's a plain question Wes: Is it OK to bolt next to a protectable crack?
Lack the balls to commit? (Bowling balls). I did. It is wrong to bolt next to a protectable crack. What's your answer?
(EDIT: Locker, also well said, if a little choppier than K-man.)
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skychild
Trad climber
Birmingham, Alabama
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Apr 11, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
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ttention Wes, Great question mtyoung is there an answer? I was kinda wondering how many routes wescrist has put up? My original question was nuanced, by more of a challenge but he's smart(assed) enough to know I was asking the direct question, "what do you know about first ascents, have you ever placed a bolt, if you did was it next to a crack, if it was, was the crack protectable with a modern rack, and if you did, did you feel like a complete pussy, well you should and your vag is a drippin'
Defending an abbhorent action is just as bad as being the perpitrator, not bad for a hill billy huh.
By your "sarcastic" reasoning, wes, the bolts should be shoved up the a*# of the bolters now, how so intellegent. Yur all over the map, but live in a smelly sh%&t-holen and are realn bitter.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 11, 2010 - 07:53pm PT
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Wes, I contacted them.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Apr 11, 2010 - 08:07pm PT
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Wow, Wes, now you're editing in response to comments - but without telling anyone you're editing. That's intellectual dishonesty. In post number 102 you had started to describe your opinion in response to my earlier question. You didn't give an opinion on the subject at hand, but you started the sentence with "My opinion is that..."
And then you changed it retroactively.
Dishonesty aside: Is it OK to bolt next to protectable cracks?
And I don't care a damn whether you've put up a single new route in your life.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Apr 11, 2010 - 08:14pm PT
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Thanks, Wes, for at least giving an answer. You're honest enough to do that.
But your opinion is totally dog-crap. People like you will convert climbing. You're in the process of changing it from a search for adventure and (at least perceived) danger in a sometimes too calm world to just another form of exercise. The out-of-doors as a big gymnasium. Wow.
You have no right to impose this value on me. Likewise you have pointed out that we lack the right to impose our "values" on you and your like.
Rights aside, we have the power to do as we like. So if some dingleberry has the power to bolt next to a protectable crack - one that they know was previously climbed without bolts no less - then people like Norwegian have an equal power to correct the situation.
EDIT: I always state when I am editing after the fact, EXCEPT when I am just correcting a typo. So, in this post above, I misused the word "than" (I used it instead of "then"). I normally would just fix that, but I thought I'd better be more explicit in this thread.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Apr 11, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
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Hey, Wes, edit away, by all means. But when what you type is all we have to "hear," it's dishonest to not say so when you do it.
Alright, I caused enough thread drift. Sorry. It's a minor issue that pales in comparison to bolting next to cracks. I withdraw that part of my criticism.
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