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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 11, 2010 - 12:10am PT
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though my youngins enjoyed some of the recently cleaned and bolted areas west of the main sugarloaf formation, something that i saw today on the west approach trail (down to the school) raised some concern.
a beautiful arching chimney on a 50' unnamed formation just west of sugarbun (and just off the trail) had at least 5 bolts next to it. now i've not climbed this route yet, but it looked about 5.8 or 5.9. Plus it has ample natural gear opportunities to warrant it a PG rating.
i raise a confrontation to the overzealous bolters. I will not make uninformed accusations, nor invite any fist fights, but as a community committed to preserving our resources, we must take a stance to communicate our (my assumption) dissaproval of these types of IDIOTIC projects.
i volunteer my crowbar wielding hand. though i could use some education on the proper processes to minimize scarring, of which i promise to invest wisely and liberally in the future.
LET THE CRACKS ALONE.
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:25am PT
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Supertopo needs a 'Like' button for posts, like Facebook.
Chris?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 12:28am PT
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again,
i raise a confrontation, per my right.
i wont drag names against the said atrocity.
i won't invite a fist fight. nor will i walk away from one.
im merely uniformed as to whom the assailants are.
i've been around them mounts long enough to know a good gear crack when i see one 50' above me.
my assumption is that gear protected cracks at sugarloaf should not be liberally bolted, and that a consensus of our collective community would agree.
sit down weschrist. you've been heard, and denied.
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BooYah
Social climber
Ely, Nv
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:33am PT
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The community will abide, Westy notwithstanding....I like your outlook & the way I see yer stick floating.
Do as you must.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:37am PT
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If I were Norwegian (I am by descent but I am refering to the specific individual) I would go climb the routes in question using gear, not the bolts, then remove them.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:38am PT
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Chop 'em!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 11, 2010 - 01:16am PT
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this thread is invalid without pics
I would say (from the comfort of my intardweb chair) that if you want opinions, at least expose us to what you want an opinion about. Otherwise, it seems like you are implying the bolters are idiots without even climbing the route. Which is not to say, you can't but if you want community support and input (confrontation??) then spell it out for us. Less conjecture that way.
M
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Apr 11, 2010 - 01:29am PT
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Would that be the wide chimney to the climbers left or the leftward arching chimney on the climbers right of said formation?
Either way, I've climbed them both as have several others. Left crack is Smokestack and was climbed in the late 70's possibly earlier and checks in at 5.6. The 5.6 part is the 10ft handcrack deep inside the chimney which allows one to exit. The rest is 5.0.
The crack on the right has no name I'm aware of, but checks in at 5.9 and is generally un-enjoyable climbing. This route was also climbed in the early 80's, has undoubtedly seen fewer ascents due to the Poo-poo nature of the climbing. Pro to 3"
Norwegian, you know my stance on this sort of crap.
Alas, let me ask several prominent developers in the area who happen to be friends of mine about it and see if they know what the deal is. If it is deemed that they are inappropriate for the area, I'll ask (developers) that they remove them.
It is important that the developers be contacted before removing their unnatural protection to mitigate the situation and insure that more damage is not done.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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Apr 11, 2010 - 02:09am PT
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I declare a thumb war.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 11, 2010 - 02:28am PT
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Wes, I don't get you.
You will champion the cause of conservationism (i.e. Central Valley water issues) well-armed with science and fact, but you seem to be shrugging off excessive bolting as NBD. Please clarify:
*Do you believe bolting of any feature, anywhere, anytime is acceptable? What are your criteria for acceptable bolting?
*Is Norwegian's objection invalid in your eyes simply because he hasn't climbed the route in question? What if he had climbed it with natural gear- where would your view fall?
*Are you just being oppositional because you're bored on a Saturday night?
Full disclosure: I'm asking these questions because I'm bored on a Saturday night.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:03am PT
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I thought the thing to do was to poop on 'em.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:10am PT
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what's a thumb war?
edit, Sal, yeah, def the right approach.
still, pics are needed.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
. . . not !
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:33am PT
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Just flatten them .
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 11, 2010 - 10:42am PT
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First thing you have to do is climb the rout. Climb it with the bolts, climb it without the bolts (if you can) maby a bit of both. Then decide what makes the climb the most fun. Maybe one or 2 of the bolts are kind of nice and the rest suck, maybe they all suck and maybe they are all darn nice to have. You really can't judge this for real without climbing it. For instance there is a climb @ My local crag named Flat Vision. From 10 ft away it looks like a 5.8 but when you step up to it and try to get off the ground it turns into a 5.11
Things are not always as they seem. Once you have done the climb then think of what is going to help give the most folks a good time on this climb? Think about the short people as well when you make this judgement. Its not just about YOU! Think about the community as a whole when you make these decisions.
You may decide that all the bolts must go or a few of the bolts should stay or all the bolts should stay.
Make the decision with a calm mind and leave the politics and ego out of it.
If you feel strongly enough that YOU are local enough to make a decision on this then have at it and be prepared to defend your decisions.
If you feel that the community has a say in the matter then talk it over with the folks that you feel have the most say in the area. Then see if you can herd cats and come up with a group decision..
INMOP unless you have done the climb then you have no say in the matter.
The exception to this rule is when a squeeze job affects a climb that you have done. If a new bolted climb is close enough to an established climb that it tempts you into clipping the new bolt while climbing the old climb then you can make a judgement on the new climb by climbing the old climb.
In most other cases where a new climb does not affect other established climbs the only way to judge that new climbs merit is to actually climb it.
Good luck
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Apr 11, 2010 - 10:48am PT
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So now determining whether or not bolts which were not placed on the FA make the route more "fun" is the criteria by which the community decides whether they stay or go?
-Kate.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 11:02am PT
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it is a misty irish type day here in the foothills.
but i will venture up there after a morning spent with my children,
and climb the route. i will take pics and report on the gear.
i don't know about the f.a. info, so thanks for that chad.
i am of the opinion that there should be no bolts if a passage exists otherwise. bolts where no passage would otherwise exist, i have no educated opinion on, as i've not placed a bolt, nor authored a first ascent of a face protected route. i do have uneducated opinions on all bolts, but i will leave those out, for now.
hang tight and i will substantiate my claims...
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Apr 11, 2010 - 11:04am PT
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Grab your pitchforks and torches bros, there's work to do. LOL!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
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Kate, yes, Fun is in fact why many of us do this. The fun factor helps determin the quality of a rout. It sounds like this incident is not an FA but a retrobolt. The knee jerk reaction would be to chop em all now and puff out the old chest and loudly proclaim what a richous human you are.
The better approach INMOP is to climb the damn thing and see what it feel like. It may well feel like an overbolted abomination but mayebe it turned a seldom climbed bag of poo into a fun classic? who knows? without actually climbing it we can't tell. Maybe all but one of the bolts suck and should be removed but maybe one of the bolts makes the climb a lot more fun? Maybe they all suck and should be removed?
Its at least worth approaching with an open mind.. If the climb is an established line that has been routinely climbed without the bolts then the decision is simple. The bolts should be removed. If it is a seldom done bag of poo that has not been climbed in years then consideration twords keeping some or all the bolts is warented. If it is an FA that appears to be out of touch with local styles then climbing and evaluateing it's legitamacy is in order. Is it a squeeze job? does it suck? is it pretty darn fun? These are legitamet questions.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:14pm PT
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Last week I chopped some needless
bolts at Woodfords, it felt so good! Yeah!
EDIT 9:34a To those who don't know... I
was just kidding. To wind up ol Chim Chim
a little this morning. But he didn't
take the bait. Oh, well...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
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I'll stick to the Woodfords where there are so many cracks that to bolt a face ten feet to either side of a crack climb would be a waste of money, when you could just top-rope it. Dan
dan, is this perhaps your beliefe system? maby other folks belief system does not like top ropeing? There is room for more than one way of thinking as you pointed out earler in your post. I agree that respecting the local ethic is important up to a point, then the torch will get passed weather the old locals like it or not.
The key element when this happens is that established climbs do not get altered. If your new super hard face climb is close enough to an established line that your bolts can be clipped from the established line then you have messed up someone elses climb and that is not fair. If you start hanging fixed draws all over the place and it gets an area closed down the you have really screwed it up for everyone. If on the other hand you run arround with a hammer and chisel and smash everyone elses routs you are just as much of a problem if not more of a problem as the bolters that YOU precieve as a problem.
There has to be a way that most of us can play in the same sandbox.
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