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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 18, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
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So then John the Baptist appeared on earth as a full grown man?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 18, 2009 - 08:16pm PT
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Yes Tobia
This is good intelligence. Not that one becomes brain dead.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 18, 2009 - 08:19pm PT
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John Moosie!
Jesus gives a good example of what happens after death with the story of Lazarus and the rich man! I personally believe the story is true. Two real individuals waiting for the judgement. 1. Lazarus is in Paradise. 2. the rich man is in Hades(not yet the Lake of Fire, that's after the Great White Throne judgement).
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 18, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
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John Moosie!
No John the Baptist was born(you have read the story).
EDIT: \The spirit of Elijah is what Christ was referring to.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 18, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
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As a believer I will take a stab at it; that is the part of this thread that is easy to respond to. It is impossible to answer a question posed for God himself. I don't know the answer and there is no one that posts on this website that can.
Except the Jesus said, ""Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. Matt 7:7 "
Did this not apply to knowledge or understanding? Didn't Jesus know all and expound it to his disciples, and didn't Paul say that we were to put off the carnal mind and put on the mind that was in Christ Jesus? Wouldn't this then make us the Christ? That is if we put on the mind of Christ?
So if Jesus was the Christ, and knew all things, and we can become the Christ, then can we not know all things.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 18, 2009 - 08:22pm PT
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777 that's a load off my mine. It's simple. The IRS will decide who is going to Hell.
Such a relief!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 18, 2009 - 08:25pm PT
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Hey Trip7. I think we are just mincing words and there is no profit in that. That is what the scribes and pharisees did. My heart tells me that reincarnation is the Truth, so I will follow that.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 18, 2009 - 08:31pm PT
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Tobia!
Thanks! You have a unique perspective to contribute being an Agnostic for so long then believing, gives you more insight to their reasoning/questions.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 18, 2009 - 08:42pm PT
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jstan- "IRS will decide who is going to Hell".
One thing IS certain, the IRS puts many of us through hell here on earth. Could it get any worse?
Actually as Cragman pointed out, it's our choice.
I think were a little guilty of thread drift here. Thought we were supposed to be talking about miracles?
John M! I here ya. Peace!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 18, 2009 - 08:58pm PT
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John Moosie- "Knock and you shall find...."
He is talking about persisting in pursuing God. Knowing God takes faith focus and follow through, and Jesus is insuring us that we will be rewarded. Don't give up in your efforts, continue to ask Him for more knowledge, patience, wisdom, love and understanding. He will give them to you.
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
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John,
Christians are supposed to strive to become Christ-like; a virtue impossible for a human to attain. The qualities that Jesus exacted as he was on Earth: loving, caring, merciful, kind etc.
The omnipotence and all knowing quality of Christ isn't going happen to us humans. We couldn't handle it.
As I mentioned earlier it is faith based. You can pick it to pieces (as anything). You can take things out of context and argue them away.
I will have to say that questioning usually leads to knowledge, wisdom, etc. but sometimes a line of questioning will box you in (or out).
I don't have the answers. I have one testimony and that is about all I can contribute.
I will add this at the risk of being written off as a fool; if you have an open heart, you are righteous in your questions, and you are persistent in your questions and seek the answers in the forms of prayer will be answered in time.
Before I was a believer I used to scoff at a God that would demand praise or patience. Why would a God of such measure and power need praise? How could such a being be cursed with something as a shallow need of an ego boost? Another why question that I wasted so many brain cells on.
Oddly enough it is written in the Bible and I believe stated by Jesus that some unfortunate few won't get the message, that they will perish. There is no hell, not like Dante's anyway. I always thought I was experiencing hell on Earth so I had nothing to fear. I don't fear much now.
Christianity is not meant to be a fear mongering attitude. It is meant as a positive concept and way of life with rewards. Don't look at it as a weakness but a strength.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 18, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
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Hey Trip7. Yes, I agree that we can be given more knowledge. I was simply answering Tobias' post where he said no one can know. I believe that while we are in the material world, in embodiment, that we can't know the full knowledge of God, yet we can know. Otherwise we would all be blind, and end up in the ditch.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Nov 18, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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I like your thoughts Tobia.
This here forum is the last place I'd ever want to discuss something so personal as the miracles I've known.
Man knows so little it's kind of a joke...
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
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John... you said Jesus must have believed in reincarnation because he didn't comment on it!!! Come on Bro.... did he believe in the Tooth fairy too? I never read that he commented on that... so he must have believed in that too! You are mutilating logic here and are ruining your own argument.... and "argument" here means a discussion about ideas and not some emotional free for all where everyone gets mad!
I also guess that Jesus must have liked the idea of slavery, because it too was popular during his time and yet he never said anything about it being a bad thing and ... all he did say, that I can see, about it, was for the owners to treat their slaves well!
The whole problem with these kind of discussions is that the so called "believers" only require faith to accept any idea while the rationalists demand evidence... they never seem to agree!!! For the rationalist, if there is no evidence, then you don't accept an idea with a high degree of certainty... that doesn't mean that you are completely closed to the idea however... if some good evidence does appear then a rationalist will re-study the idea based on new evidence.
Like ghosts for example... there has not been a great deal of scientific evidence to demonstrate that they exist, although many have tried to prove it so .. Thus I accept the idea, with a pretty high degree of certainty, maybe 98%, that there aren't ghosts but still remain open to the idea if solid proof is presented...
If there is evidence for something.... then faith is not required.... If something requires faith then that tells me there is no evidence to support the idea..... I guess I am one of those "Show me the Money" guys!!! Religion and Politics... we shouldn't even bother to discuss the things as most people have their minds made up and aren't going to change them!!
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
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I don't mind posting it. I was wanting to die and doing my best to pull the trigger but couldn't. I was looking for anything to get me out of this life; I asked Satan who I had so vividly and candidly spoken with to take me away. I thought well that ain't working so I for the hell of it I pitched the idea to God (something I never believed to exist) and my darkened (physically speaking) room filled with light. A beam of pure white light. Not metaphorical light. White light. Not sunshine.
Now I ask you is that not a miracle?
Did all my problems disappear? Not hardly. But I received hope. I understood that there was more to my existence than what I was living in, for and from. More to this reality than I had considered or allowed for.
Now you tell me; put yourself in this situation; what would you believe? Call me crazy, mistaken, dreaming or higher than any leaf, powder, dust, drink or pill had taken me before but at that moment I was the most grounded person I had ever been.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 18, 2009 - 09:24pm PT
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Hey Tobia, I agree that there is no hell except what we create. What God of love would create an eternal hell and condemn someone who is given "one" life to it for not understanding? None that I know. I do disagree with you on becoming the Christ. I believe that many have become the Christ. When you put on the full mind of Christ, you die to your old self and are born anew. This can happen on earth because it is not talking about the physical body, but a state of consciousness. There have been many Christs on this world. Buddha, Krishna, and Jesus are to name but a few.
When Jesus said "I Am the Way" and that no man comes unto the father except by me, he meant that he had put on the fullness of the Christ mind and once you do that, you become the Christ. We are all sons and daughters of God and have the same potential.
I believe that Christianity's saying that Jesus was the only Christ is a lie meant to keep us from reaching higher. The scribes and pharisees have taken over Christianity, which is why revelations says that something like 7 out of 8 churches have lost their first Love and are following an outer teaching. ( can't remember the exact number ) The kingdom of God is within and if you don't have the love of Christ for All in your heart, then you will not ascend and thus You will reincarnate. Yikes.. haha.. You will Not go to hell, because there is no hell, but back to whatever you have created from your past lives here on Earth. This is the wheel of Life and death, which one cannot escape until one puts on the fullness of the Christ mind.
I am certain others disagree with me. Thats okay, they have free will, as do I.
El cap, Reincarnation is an important aspect of understanding Life, which is why I made the statement that I did. As for slavery, all men are slaves until they put on the mind of Christ. This does not condone slavery, but calls for a higher understanding among all men. You are a slave, you just don't know it. Ask Werner..haha..
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 18, 2009 - 09:37pm PT
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Awesome Cragman !
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Park Rat
Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
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Nov 18, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
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I am a big WWII buff, I will share a story out of war.
A woman wakes up goes downstairs, tells her family,
that her husband is dead.
Her family is shocked, they tell her she is just scarred & over worried.
She tells them that she knows he is dead, he came to her, in her sleep,
to tell her goodbye, no one believes her.
Weeks later they got the news, his ship had been torpedoed, in the Pacific.
He had died the same time, she had dream.
Is it true, I believe it to be true.
I believe our spirits may survive our bodies, for how long, who knows,
after that your guess is as good as mine.
Miracle probably not,
a few people seem to be able in sense things that others do not see or feel.
Look at the hundreds of accounts of near death experiences.
I personally find the idea a comfort,
I am at peace with the idea of my own death, losing my friends,
loved ones & my wonderful pets, that is hard to bare.
The real miracle is that we were born in the first place.
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matty
Trad climber
los arbor
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Nov 18, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
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It will unquestionably surprise some people to hear me say this, but God's scriptures are way off base. I want to share this with you because God continues to delegitimize my belief system and seeks to replace it with a counter-hegemony that seeks to diminish society's inducements to good behavior. Fortunately, that remains to be done in full. As you may have noticed, God's recent attempt to rally for a cause that is completely void of moral, ethical, or legal validity is one more gambit in a chess game with no rules. An obvious parallel from a slightly different context is that just because God and hiss allies don't like being labelled as "dysfunctional, dissolute loonies" or "superstitious virulent-types" doesn't mean the shoe doesn't fit.
Mystical sales pitches proceeds both pragmatically and emotionally. God is said to enhance peace, love and personal happiness. Everyone can see, this argument is not valid, which should indicate to you that there are a lot of people who don't consider logic and reason essential to critical thought. One must pause in admiration at the triumph of media manipulation that brings bright minds to a halt.
Whoever stated that open party with unlimited access to alcohol every Sunday, never thought it could possibly outgrow the host's ability to manage the crowd, I concluded that they were entirely ignorant. Now they claim that I'm supposed to shut up and smile when it says unpatriotic, neurotic things, I believe that it's crossed the line into post-rationalist neo-Hegelianism. Let's try to understand what handing over my life to God will really mean. It certainly won't mean that I'll be able to freely persue my interests. No, it will mean kneeling, cannibalism, vampires, and zombie worship will become omnipresent in our society. It will mean a descent back into the dark ages. Jesus says that he loves us. That's a stupid thing to say. It's like saying that I love the Jonas Brothers.
The idea of God is more dangerous most other ideas because it says that the only way to know god is to turn off our minds from thinking. Religions battle against my better judgment is a battle between faith and thought, between tradition and reason, between the defenders of Western civilization and its enemies. With the battle lines drawn as such, it is abundantly clear that many Christians revels in its adversarial campaign to dress up its profit motive in the cloak of selfless altruism. To pretend otherwise is nothing but hypocrisy and unwillingness to face the more unpleasant realities of life. The church wants to be the one who determines what information we have access to. Yet it is also a big proponent of many particularly ugly forms of immorality. The Bible would have us believe that no one is smart enough to see through its transparent lies. Yeah, right. And I also suppose that the Bible has answers to everything? The fact of the matter is that if we don't do something soon, its unreasonable practices will propagate faster than the rash Jesus caught from Mary Magdalenes. Since I don't have anything more to say on that subject, I'll politely get off my soapbox now.
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