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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 18, 2009 - 11:45am PT
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that a God Exists? If so whzt was it?
I grow more cynical every year. Is this typical as one ages?
Juan
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Nov 18, 2009 - 11:50am PT
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yep, everyday
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Nov 18, 2009 - 11:56am PT
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Don't mean it to be a downer for you, but its always been obvious to me that the only gods who've ever existed are ones who were created by man.
I actually think its liberating to deal with reality, and I've done quite a bit of reading about comparitive religion, christian theology, and human evolution and sociology. There are any number of reasons why man has invented his gods, and a number of these reasons have had positive purposes in furthering group survival, and I'm sure in modern times there are tangible benefits as well as positive psychological benefits. The basic problem however is that it is in essence superstition, and leads to irrational decision-making.
Think of it this way, you weren't in any pain before you existed and you won't be in any pain after you've existed. Best to just make the most out of your day and leave it at that.
Cheers!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 18, 2009 - 12:07pm PT
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Think of it this way, you weren't in any pain before you existed and you won't be in any pain after you've existed.
I just love this kind of total mental speculation.
Not only does the "thinker" have any clue of what happened "before" , nor does the "thinker" have any clue about the "after".
Yet the "thinker's" entire post is based on "I think".
I will go to court and tell the judge "I think this guy did it".
I'm so sure the judge & jury will convict on the "I think" testimony ....
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Chip
Trad climber
Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
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Nov 18, 2009 - 12:07pm PT
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Yes. Twice, different each time. I now know that God is trying to speak to each of us in many ways but you have to listen to hear. the hard part is in trying to figure out how or whom He might be speaking through. I am not a preacher and did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express.
The most dramatic incident was when I attempted to pull into an intersection after my light turned green. I heard an audible "No", which I thought came from the back seat of my car. I stopped, turned around to see who was about to car jack me and saw no one. I quickly turned back and started out into the intersection to hear a much stronger "No" again, and it seemed to fill the entire interior of the car. As I paused again, wondering WTF?, an 18 wheeler flew threw the intersection, at least 10 seconds after the light had changed.
I think anyone who has spent much time in the mountains has had a "spidey sense" moment and hopefully avoided a problem. I've always chalked that up to being well enough aware and in control to be able to notice something not right. I truely don't think God cares about most of our activities, such as the outcome of a sporting event, unless it comes between us and God. I also believe that God doesn't create illnesses, disasters, etc. but is there to help guide us if we are open to it. The final and great healing is when we go home at the end, but there is a great deal of emotional and spiritual healing that is offered to us before we pass on.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 18, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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If the laws of the universe come from God, why would we look for breaking those laws to prove God?
In any case, we've posted many things, even lately, that seem to defy reason (check my JuJu thread) but it doesn't make any difference because folks just think the reporter is nuts.
So folks quit telling their secrets
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1010043
Peace
Karl
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squishy
Mountain climber
sacramento
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Nov 18, 2009 - 12:09pm PT
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Ok, change the words to believe and then try forming an argument yourself...
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Shimanilami
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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Once, during a Widespread Panic concert. It wore off after about 4 hours.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 12:23pm PT
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No I have knot.
It does not keep me from sending out good thoughts.
Erik
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Binks
Social climber
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Nov 18, 2009 - 12:28pm PT
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You wake up in the morning and your heart is beating, you are alive and have consciousness. That's a miracle and it proves that either God exists or that miraculous processes lead to your existence over geologic time spans. Isn't that enough if you think about it?
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 12:32pm PT
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Chip... good that god is looking after you.... I wonder why he lets 40,000 children, world wide, die of desease and starvation every day.... guess he doesn't give a damn about kids?! I've seen nothing to indicate a god.... only people despirate to believe in anything that sounds good...
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Nov 18, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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was it jim beyer who was jumaring his lead rope high on the shield.
it began to fray as it rubbed across a mushroomed piton. he prayed
and nothing happened and then he knew that there was no god.
i read that somewhere.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
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Life itself is a miracle.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Nov 18, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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hey chip-
If that was god talking to you and said "no" then an 18 wheeler blew through a red light, with all of god's power don't you think it would have been easier for god to talk to the driver of the 18 wheeler?
just a thought!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Nov 18, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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yes, but only after I was off that piece.
heh
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 18, 2009 - 01:51pm PT
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elcap-tom: I've asked that question (what about the children who are suffering) every time the whole god issue comes up, and not one of the believers has ever answered.
Whether or not there is a god, or gods, is something we really can't answer. Maybe we'll figure out how to prove or disprove it someday, but what can be proven is that the loving "no sparrow shall fall" god believed in by so many Christians doesn't exist.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Nov 18, 2009 - 01:51pm PT
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There can never be a "proof" for a miracle. Miracles must by definition exist outside the physical realities of the phenomenological world which is the only place that physical proofs can exist. The argument for miracles and god is really a psychological one predicated on the intense feelings of the believer.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 18, 2009 - 01:52pm PT
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was it jim beyer who was jumaring his lead rope high on the shield.
it began to fray as it rubbed across a mushroomed piton. he prayed
and nothing happened and then he knew that there was no god.
Yep, god is suppose to be your little magic talisman, where you can do whatever you want and if you willfully risk death, he will pop right along and fix everything for you, so you can go on screwing up forever. Lots of folks seem to think that is what God is SUPPOSE to do.
You want to climb while drunk, screw up and end up hanging upside down with the rope tied around your leg, no problems call 911-God, and God will hurry along and save your sorry butt. Hmm. lets see, that happened in Yosemite on El Cap. Maybe YOSAR is God. Naw. I know those guys.. heh heh.
So what if you are out in the back country and pull the same stunt. Well, if you have God's real phone number.. 911-REALGOD, then no problems, because God loves you and will show right up and keep you from getting hurt.
So with the right phone number, you can do anything you want and God will pop right along and fix it for you. Isn't it great to have REALGOD. He is like your own personal get out of jail free card. Lucky you.
Sign up today for coverage under REALGOD.com and get your very own personal god to rescue you from your screwups. Forget the rope? No problem, go climbing anyway, because if you fall, just shout the magic words, SAVe ME Jesus.. and Jesus will send a flock of angels down to keep you from hitting the ground. Don't feel like putting in an extra piece to back up that mangy rap bolt. No problem, cause you have REALGOD.com at your service. Go ahead, rap off that 40 year old quarter inch rusted bolt that pulls out with your fingers. REALGOD will save you.
Sign up today. SALE ENDS tomorrow.
..........
Yep.. Many people think that is how god is suppose to work. Your own personal magic talisman servant god. Since it doesn't work that way, that must mean god doesn't exist.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Nov 18, 2009 - 02:04pm PT
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As St. Jerry said "I need a miracle every day!" Or was that Bob Weir?
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Chip
Trad climber
Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
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Nov 18, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
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Dave G., I've had the same thought. I can only imagine that the driver didn't/wouldn't listen.
Should God step in to undo the injustices of the world? We all wish it would happen (unless we are the source of the bad, and we have all been at one time or another) but that is also a double edged sword and would break the biggest principle of all. Would you want to have your freedom taken away? That is what free will is all about. It is a gift or a destructive burden, depending on how it is used, and the God who gave it to us is then bound by it. As a parent, I find that the most effective guidance is when I can counsel one of my kids to do the right thing of their own will, rather than when I have to scream/yell/threaten/enforce, and that is the best analogy I've been able to come up with.
Thankfully, we all have our own beliefs and are entitled to keep them. I have been blessed with experience that takes away my own doubt. You may have had an experience but choose a different path based on your own bias. How I behave in the future, based on mine, is now on me. I'll probably keep screwing up but I'm gonna keep trying to be better.
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