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wallguy
Big Wall climber
Utah
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Sep 11, 2010 - 06:23pm PT
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Its funny how Kaity, Steph and all of Ammon's friend have so much to say before the real story comes out. Now we learn that Ammon has been an as#@&%e and we are suppose to support Ammon by not posting about it. I wonder if Steph is going to make a video on how its safe to BASE jump while drunk and stoned. You should be ashamed you....NPS Ranger!!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Sep 11, 2010 - 06:50pm PT
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In response to much of what has been said, both pro and con re: Ammon: I really couldn't care less whether or not he is "guilty' of some "victimless crime!"
My major bitch is Tasering, on general principles. It is almost ALWAYS an excessive use of force unless a capital crime has been commited! End of story, and my final post on this subject.
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TheBigJohnson
Social climber
Arizona
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Sep 12, 2010 - 01:45am PT
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Ammon is a climber that has some amazing short term accomplishments but he will always live in the shadow of climbers like Dean. Steph and all the other friends of Ammon need to remember that Ammon will make you believe in him but at the root of it, he is a pot smoking drunk, that makes the climbing community look bad.
If you want to make BASE Jumping legal, you need to find a person that the community can stand by to show that BASE jumping is something that can be done safely. You can’t just find some Drunk Stoner Bum with a few endorsements who gets caught jumping and runs from the cops with a shity ground crew to be the one to hold the BASE jumping flag as he staggers up to the courthouse. Ammon only waves the flag of disappointment.
BASE jumping while drunk and stoned with an Oz of weed. Ammon, use some common sense and leave the weed at home!!!
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bmacd
climber
Relic Hominid
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Sep 12, 2010 - 02:20am PT
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I find it very distasteful, that the elite decide they can make videos on the subject, start face book pages on the subject, do radio interviews about it, and then believe they can come forward and declare the general public is forbidden to discuss the matter on an open, public forum. You are joking right ?
No part of this discussion has any bearing on the outcome of a court case, unless you are one of the people directly involved and are foolish enough to be posting to this thread
Then asking the climbing community to support a climber whom has clearly broken the law, shows the same poor judgment that was exercised in the first place when the jump was made.
The issue the discussion should center on is taser missuse, which is a serious problem.
Lockers right this has nothing to do with climbing, be wary of those whom are trying to make that connection
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Sep 12, 2010 - 02:38am PT
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Locker,
You can thank Ammon and others like him when your recreation opportunities are severely restricted or eliminated.
That goes for climbers, ATV riders, hikers, hunters, gun shooters, ETC.
Next time there is a Dean Potter incident in Arches, there will be NO climbing there. There is NO BASE in Yosemite and that will continued for a long time if not forever. Don’t forget Hueco Tanks, which was almost lost because of little respect by a few.
Did you know that if you poach a deer in WY that you will be fined $5000, spend 30 days in Jail, and never hunt or fish legally in the Western United States for a very long time?
It is the few bad guys that affect us all. Most restrictions, more closures, higher fines and penalties and more.
Locker, you are pretty short sighted.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Sep 12, 2010 - 03:00am PT
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to quote the inimitable Mr. Way..."so, dude...what's the issue?"
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TheBigJohnson
Social climber
Arizona
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Sep 12, 2010 - 05:54am PT
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"I'd venture to say that he's SIMPLY a dude living his life to the FULLEST...
as BEST he can...
While he can..."
That is the point, Ammon doesn’t give a f*#k about anyone but Ammon. He is going to do what ever he wants and screw it up for everyone else. He left his girlfriend in the Meadow while he ran away with his gear. I’m sure the Congressman that everyone is writing to will think that Ammon is a great model citizen for him to stand behind. I’m sure he would love to attach his name to a sh#t bag like Ammon. It will really look good after Ammon’s drunk ass kills himself on a jump.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 12, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
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to be fair to steph davis, she made a video, from the looks of it, that she just put up for her FB friends, it seemed more about self expression than true public advocacy, IMO.
SOMEONE ELSE then posted a link to the video.
that's not the same as her somehow sending it to the press and to the NPS, or even the same as her posting it here.
just sayin...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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So,.... after the fit hits the shan is it fun to just stand around and point fingers at who has more on them?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Sep 12, 2010 - 02:17pm PT
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Did you know that if you poach a deer in WY that you will be fined $5000, spend 30 days in Jail, and never hunt or fish legally in the Western United States for a very long time?
First, you gotta get caught. I suspect most aren't.
And, geez, you mean if you get caught poaching, you'll lose your hunting privileges? Sorry, but, I can't help but laugh my arse off with that.
-Brian in SLC
PINEDALE, Wyo. (AP) -- Two Utah men have been convicted of various charges stemming from the illegal shooting of a trophy class mule deer buck last year in southwest Wyoming.
The Wyoming Game and Fish Department says Jeremy S. Zumwalt and Gregory L. Carter, both from the Salt Lake City area, were convicted recently in Sublette County Circuit Court.
The poaching incident occurred Nov. 16, 2007, south of Pinedale.
Circuit Court Judge Curt Haws ordered Carter to pay a $5,400 fine and $2,000 in restitution. Zumwalt was ordered to pay $2,000 in fines and $2,000 in restitution.
Both lost their hunting and fishing privileges for 10 years, and both had two-year jail sentences suspended in favor of two years of probation.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 12, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
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This thread continues not because we are concerned with Ammon. It persists because we are trying to learn what we have to learn. My candidates:
1. People are going to do what they are going to do.
2. If there is something admirable it is the person who does the time with a smile. Saying, "Hey that's the breaks. I knew that going in."
3. As a group, we have a lot of work to do.
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Sep 12, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
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U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit handed down a big decision against BASE jumping in the Glen Canyon National Recreation Area in 2000.
The big thing is the decision about BASE jumpers being guilty of disorderly conduct. Base jumpers put the general public on the ground at risk.
226 F.3d 989 (9th Cir. 2000)
The safety threat implicated in BASE jumping is most often the potential harm to the jumper due to the fatalities and injuries characterizing the extreme sport. We do not, however, discount the safety risks of BASE jumping posed to members of the public, particularly in areas where people are likely to congregate. See Carroll, 813 F.Supp. at 704 (finding that BASE jumping from the St. Louis Arch, which is located in the eastern part of downtown St. Louis, was hazardous to those on the ground). The appellants respond by arguing that they were jumping in a remote part of Glen Canyon. The evidence shows, though, that there were occasionally other boats in the area. The risk of harm to those on the boats is real as one of the defendants here collided into the BASE jumpers' houseboat. Visitors to the national park, moreover, have no reason to be on guard for BASE jumpers as they might for those taking part in activities which are permitted such as rock climbing or hang gliding. We therefore affirm the district court's determination that BASE jumping can create a risk of harm to the public and defer to the courts' evidentiary findings. See Hoff, 22 F.3d at 224.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Sep 12, 2010 - 05:02pm PT
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locker
someone dies in a traffic accident every 15 minutes in the USA was a stat I saw. By .Gov reasoning cars should have been banned long ago.
Has anyone ever actually (crash?) landed on a pedestrian?
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
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Sep 12, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
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"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds." Albert Einstein
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
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"Big mouthes have often encountered heavier reprisals from authoritarian minds." experience,...
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Sep 12, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
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How many miles driven equals a driving death?
How many miles BASEd equals a BASE death?
Or the standard deaths per 100,000 users?
I bet that BASE has higher stats.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 12, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
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Somehow we have come to believe any argument that supports our prior conclusion is good. As is any crime that we successfully get away with.
Like elections themselves, all social questions are a choice between evils. Indeed we could cease to use automobiles, but would the cost to us all then be even higher than that caused by the inevitable accidents? So it is we register cars, require tests of drivers and have traffic law with police enforcement.
As to base jumping we have several negatives including but not limited to: Danger to others. The cost of regulating and managing the activity. Possibly turning our national parks into a form of street theater. Jumps are performances after all.
Has anyone here got a positive sufficient to more than offset the negatives
in the opinion of the majority of our citizens?
Edit:
Radical:
1. Danger to others. True but climbing more often than not takes place away from the general public. High velocity gets management's attention. In climbing the point is not that of falling at high speed. When climbing does start to value high speed our problem will increase. Even speed in either direction if risks are substantially increased.
2. Cost of managing. Authorities have tried to reduce cost by not managing us very much. As our numbers grow this cost will become an ever larger negative to be offset only by fees.
3. Performance. The public is generally too far away to see climbers. And who among the general public wants to go stand in a dusty mosh pit to see sport climbing? With the "Ask a Climber" program Yosemite has accepted a risk, I think, because with Facelift climbers have said, "We want to contribute and be a partner." If I had been at the staff meetings on this decision I expect I would have heard staff discussing educational opportunities for the public.
Yosemite's willingness to bear the cost of YOSAR as required for climbers shows Yosemite has been out in front for a long time. That and the "Ask a Climber" tells me climbers have friends in the NPS. Their efforts to broaden the NPS mission statement will have an uphill fight, however, should individual climbers behave poorly.
Bottom line.
Climbers who really want to become contributing partners need to behave as partners.
After completing my post I see Jeff is saying the same thing.
Am I, an ex-climber, opposed to climbing?
To the extent that climbers do not value conservation of the shared resource and do not respect the rights of others - Yes.
We have not quite reached that point = yet.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Sep 12, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
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