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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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May 21, 2014 - 12:41am PT
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You guys are arguing with people who believe in zombies.
Best of luck.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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May 21, 2014 - 12:43am PT
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I don't recall the Bluering sig on the Declaration.
As usual when YOU say WE you mean THEM.
Same as it ever was... same as it ever was.
DMT
Give it a rest with this projectionist bullsh#t. So I'm responsible for racism before I was born too? Is that ME? Can it be ME when my Grandfather shot Koreans in the face? Or is it just up to you to decide who can have feelings of patriotism?
you're full are white-guilt crap....
EDIT: You guys are arguing with people who believe in zombies.
And with that you should have no further comments. God bless ya, brah!
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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May 21, 2014 - 12:54am PT
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There's a lot of Home Depots and Wal-marts built on top of burial grounds. I bet a lot of those dudes were kick-ass warriors. Probably a lot of McDonald's too.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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May 21, 2014 - 01:09am PT
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That's my point. There is no 'we' in original intent document.
Well, MY fellow countrymen did start one of our documents, "We the people", and you better bet yer ass they meant that to endure for eternity as they saw it.
It was the creation of the most awesome Republic ever. It started it all. And I'm proud of those men. They did the right thing, despite their flaws, they created what we have today!
Tell that to China, North Korea, or even Japan!
I'm proud of our heritage. We did more good than bad.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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May 21, 2014 - 01:17am PT
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It's Father Knows Best without the clever double entendres.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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May 21, 2014 - 01:38am PT
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Dude you're so full of it.
DMT
Yeah, it's called patriotism. I'm totally full of it. Want some, or would you rather continue to sh#t on it?
Kinda weird that a never-served-nic has more honor of our foundation and traditions than a REAL patriot like yerself. I need to get some more of your condemnation down into my soul. I just don't feel it enough. Something must be wrong with me.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 21, 2014 - 02:17am PT
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Well, they didn't create what we have today. They created some of our modern political structure but they also created a political structure that disenfranchised over half the population, and created protections allowing the elites to tyrannize and completely subjugate about 20% of the population. Those ideas were eventually rejected, but not after several decades passed, and quite a bit of blood was shed.
They had some good ideas but they certainly were NOT gods, for crying out loud.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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May 21, 2014 - 07:53am PT
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You're arguing history with an intellectual wind up toy.
Prior to 1916, my peeps were across the pond hating just about everybody else from our remote and soggy hovels, while the Brits hated us.
We reserved that special hatred for each other, of course.
Just say no to Original Guilt.
Dirty, dirty humans.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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May 21, 2014 - 09:15am PT
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Them Brits had their heads up their arses.
Those with a bit o' that Irish blood, Native Americans, Canadians, The Founding Fathers, the feuding children. We can all agree now.
I am being somewhat educated by this discussion.
Be warned. Do not F--- with Santa Clause, Mrs. Clause, the hard working Elves, and all reindeer. Or else! I will find out where you live and by a plane ticket. I also have a passport, so you Canadians better watch what you say about Santa too.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2014 - 10:23am PT
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Cleaved off the state religion part....precisely BK. Most of the first European settlers came here because they were persecuted by the "state religions" in their native lands.
Freedom of religion was an important concept in our constitution....it also implies freedom FROM religion. No longer would a person be persecuted because they practiced the wrong religion or no religion.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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May 21, 2014 - 10:48am PT
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yes, the Chief, I'm sure the crags were crawling with Indians. Now they're crawling with loud-ass, spoiled, trash-throwing Americans who have no respect for anything, except of course for their patriotism.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 21, 2014 - 11:23am PT
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Boy SC! I bet when you look at a rose you only see thorns?
I think the US is on the cutting edge of "the people" as a society deciding on which moral grounds to stand on, and documenting them for all to see. Seems like in the past, anybody with any "goods" would hide them away and not speak up. The Internet being the "Great Campfire" where we can ALL speak up, or listen. Where else in the world do they have a bunch of geniuses sitting around bagg'in on the neighbors?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 21, 2014 - 11:53am PT
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It was the creation of the most awesome Republic ever. It started it all.
which one? what all?
We did more good than bad.
we did? to whom?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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May 21, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
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Let's de-mythologize the Founding Fathers Were Christians claim:
A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson[21][22][23] (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin.[24] Others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists
An alternate view:
Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid "theistic rationalism".[ Jefferson's "bible" written later in his life:
Jefferson's condensed composition is especially notable for its exclusion of all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels which contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages indicating Jesus was divine
Any quick Wikipedia search will give you similar results.
You can claim that the Founding Fathers were mostly raised Christian and practiced it some time in their lives. You cannot claim the Founding Fathers were all Christian.
They most definitely wanted to keep government out of religion and more importantly, religion out of government.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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May 21, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
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We did more good than bad.
Yep.
Authors, such as David Cesarani, argued that United States government policies in furtherance of its so-called Manifest Destiny constituted genocide.
Determining how many people died as a direct result of armed conflict between Native Americans, and Europeans and their descendants, is difficult because accurate records are generally not available.[21] One notable study by Gregory Michno concluded that of 21,586 tabulated casualties, military personnel and settlers accounted for 6,596 (31%), while indigenous casualties totaled about 14,990 (69%) for the period 1850–90.
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John M
climber
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May 21, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
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You have to fight in defense of your country, to be patriot.
I know that we have had this argument before, but do you mean actually fight, or just serve in the military? And why is the military in your opinion the only thing that protects america? Is the guy who grows the food that feeds the military also necessary in your paradigm? What about the person who builds the tank? Or the plane? The military doesn't function without all of those things. And you don't have a new supply of fighters without someone having babies, so in the long run do moms count in your definition of patriot?
If none of them count and only those who actually fight or serve in the military count as patriots in your definition, then are the rest are just good citizens? And the good citizens supply everything that the "Patriots" need to fight.
Just curious Dingus.. I"m not trying to attack you. Just interested in how you define Patriot. I happen to agree with you that if you push for a war, then you should be willing to sign up and go to the front line.
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John M
climber
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May 21, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
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I believe that you would have to define what constitutes "harms way" for me to understand better, but I'm not certain that I really want to get into that today. I'm kind of distracted because I'm packing to move.
Just as an example though, does any military service qualify as "in harms way"? Or do you actually have to be a front line soldier?
Do all policemen who walk a beat qualify as being in harms way since they might be called on to go after a terrorist? Of do they only qualify if they have actually gone after a terrorist?
Do border patrol qualify as being in harms way? Since they also might be called on to stop a terrorist?
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John M
climber
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May 21, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
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LOL.. well, I'm glad to see that those REMFs don't qualify, though you have pretty much knocked out yourself and 99 percent of most americans from being called a Patriot.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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May 21, 2014 - 03:22pm PT
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Typical members of organized religion summarized in one anecdote:
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!"
He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."
I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
I said, "Die, heretic scum!" And I pushed him over.
(With credit to American comedian Emo Phillips.)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 21, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
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Thanks, Mtn young. I'd been looking for that joke, except that I heard it told in Mennonite Brethren terms.
John
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