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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Tony, I think you put your finger on it by saying the 'business' of God seems to produce controversy and discord among believers. Organized religions are created by people, who by agreement, practice their own version of belief. The Bible was written by man 'inspired by God', but still written by man. Language and interpretations from the original Greek and Hebrew text lose translation and meaning; so we are left to our own interpretation. That's the danger and the seed for discord. We each have our own prejudice of what is just, what is right or wrong, or what God is before we begin to learn what the Bible teaches us.
You can be a fundamentalist and take the Bible literally, leaving no room for logic or interpretation. If you don't take the Bible literally, now you've open the door to pick and choose what fits your preferences, thus producing hundreds of versions of Christianity. It’s a pickle for sure, just as there are hundreds of philosophical views of life.
I don't think those who have experienced God (in the Christian sense) in a spiritual manner would disagree with each other as to what they feel or their basic faith. I have met many fellow Christians from various denominations who found their faith (reborn if you will) and their experiences are very similar to my own. That commonality only reinforces in my mind that God is alive and working in those who open their hearts to Him.
Where we get hung up is in the Church itself, be it Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise. Churches tend to impose opinion of what God expects of us, of how we are to live our lives, creates formalities and rituals, etc. etc. We feel compelled to follow those doctrines if only to be a team player and fit in with our fellow parishioners. That's dangerous for obvious reasons and thus the source of discord.
Hope that helps. Clearly we can spend days discussing why and how religion has failed and where man has failed in following God, but it doesn't negate God's message of love for each other.
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Paul, I think Madbolter did an excellent job of outlining why we cannot pretend to know the mind of God. To impose or pretend we have a higher sense of morality or purpose is hubris and arrogant at best. But I'll try and answer your concern about original sin as the source of all the world's troubles. Consider the Bible's original audience and timeline.
These were simple people, uneducated, unsophisticated. They told stories (parables) to try and explain God's intent, His vision, and His desires for us. Try not to get caught up in the particulars (no thinking man would agree that God created the universe in six days, but it helps move the story along). The Garden of Eden is what could be; it represents a better place, hope of a better time. Disobedience (self-rule) leads to folly.
For me, God gave us free will, the ability to choose between right and wrong, good and evil; despite all the world's ills. To me it's a test. Do we choose Him or do we choose the world (greed, selfishness, lust, self glory, etc.).
There are many horrible things that happen in this world to the innocent, that's why they call them tragedies. Without tragedies we would have this Garden of Eden already and we would never know pain, suffering, or any ills of evil. That would be a separate reality (love that route). By experiencing these tragedies we know the difference and can make better choices and otherwise appreciate what is going right in our lives.
Life is not fair, never was and never will be. There are no guarantees. Tragedies force us to make better decisions and provide impetus to make the most of our lives, and give back where we can (compassion). I only suggest you look beyond the flaws and focus on the moral of the stories.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Madbolter1,
Wow, I think that's one of the best responses I've seen yet! It's all about me, what I want to have, what I want to do, what I want to be." For someone to say, "It's not about YOU!" is so contradictory to what the world teaches you. I know it was difficult for me having been fed by the world's system for most of my life. But as the Word slowly starts to transform you, you start to experience a whole new way of life. You are absolutely right, there is so much more depth to God's Word than what we can touch but the bottom line is you have to want to know, to reach out and take the free gift.
Glory to God for your reply (note: it's not about Madbolter1 but God who gets the credit!).
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Human consensus tells us that the death of a child by small pox is a "bad" "evil" "negative" thing.
There's no tap-dancing. You are quite sure of the above claim, so you should be instantly able to answer the obvious question: What if the child was young Hitler? THEN is it a bad thing?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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good/evil, try rudolf steiner. there really is no such thing as evil. all motivation is, somehow, for good, if often rather selfish.
lynne, don't think we've met. you must be of protestant persuasion if you put such faith in the bible. i've tried to explain where i'm coming from with all that. and please don't lump "indians" into one category. there are many "indian" cultures, each one is quite different, you'll find your "great spirit" (a white man word, i suspect) if you have to look for it, but i gravitated towards the navajo for particular reasons. the nice thing about tony hillerman is he's a lot more entertaining than any book in your bible. i'm not quite so superstitious as a real navajo, but it's interesting that the original navajo nation was one of the most democratic cultures you'll ever come across.
jesus is portrayed as wan and effeminate in art. after all, he allowed himself to be captured and executed. he didn't really suffer any more--except perhaps in his head--than other victims of the essentially fascist roman empire. the personality that comes across to me from the bible is a rather aloof know-it-all who relies heavily on magic to prove himself. this is difficult to trust. and christians have me rolling on the floor laughing my ass off the way they subscribe to his lovey-dovey pacifism on sundays and then go about business as usual the rest of the week.
beauty and truth are very obvious things to me, essential things, important things. if you don't know what they are, start out small. it helps to be a builder. when you get done building something right--sometimes it can be rather difficult--the word that comes to mind, finally, is "beautiful".
paul: there's the key. the death of a child by smallpox is bad for the child and all those that love it, but good for the germs which multiplied in its body. the god people might say that god loves the kid and the germs both. not a bad explanation, really. the kid might go to heaven, which in a way sustains their version of god. most of them probably don't believe in a heaven for germs, but why not?
climbera5a: i put it in a somewhat wider context. here on supertopo, it's pretty much mainstream protestant/fundamentalist christianity, a certain kind of experience, a certain expectation, a certain consensus among believers but it also seems to aggravate a very contrary atheism. to me, that's the whole problem with this experience of god. it requires one kind of experience, it's generally herded into a certain spin, and those who don't have it are rather roundly damned. look beyond your churches. there are many parallel experiences. if you like this protestant/fundamentalist god, you'll love islam. i'm serious. catholic mysticism, however, is quite a bit different and not generally encouraged, which is one reason why catholicism can be so discouragingly vicarious. largo here went all the way to zen buddhism for his spiritual experience, and then came back home and tried to cast it in mainstream protestant intellectualism. pretty freaking ambitious, perhaps a lot like his climbing. beyond all these things there is yoga, which claims quite profound experience. there are also many nativist traditions which christians look down their noses at. i just try to look at everything. yea, ambitious too, i admit.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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For those new to the thread, it's helpful to remember Madbolter1 is the angry philosopher Christian. ("Angry" all over the place regarding science, science education, and the Story it revealed, as is still revealing, about how the world works and how life works.)
What H. sapiens calls "evil" is readily explainable in mechanistic naturalistic terms. In large part, by the sciences, too. (Predation, for example, and deception, which are natural "pressures" set against all living things) The sciences (including prescriptive sciences) just haven't "gotten around to it," to modeling it yet in its many forms.
Evil, its nature and history as explained by the Abrahamic narrative, in other words, evil explained in terms of (a) the Fall (Original Sin) or (b) from Satan and fallen angels is pure mythology, as bogus as astrology.
But it is amazing (if not lame) to see theist philosophers (or in the West, really Jehovahnist philosophers) use their academic training and fancy sophisticated language to try to reify (make real) this bronze age mythology.
Adapt. Wise counsel is to spend your limited energies and resources adapting to the causality of the universe, not fighting it.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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All morality, like deity, is human invention. Morality is directly related to a necessary social function for the good of the group. Our ability to create a moral structure for our own benefit is one of the distinguishing human traits. In that sense all morality is hubristic and rightly so.
Morality requires neither God nor perfect certainty as a foundation as it is a force already deeply seated in the human condition.
The death of a child is universally seen as something negative. Since our perspective is human, it would seem strange to justify that death as a good because it benefits some bacteria or virus. Surely God is not killing humans in order to feed the bacteria!
Christians will never be able to mitigate the problem of natural evil, what it is or where it comes from; It negates the notion of a personal God caring for his flock and denies either the goodness or the omnipotence of the deity forcing the believer to choose between the two.
So which is it?
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Fructose, I don't think you can casually dismiss evil or categorize it as simply a natural defense mechanism (pressures), such as telling the officer you only had one beer after you shared a six pack with your buddy. True evil is something different. The "Fall" was caused by pride, from which nearly all sin or evil is derived. I'd like to see science attempt to model the various permutations of pride. Perhaps in the process there would be revelation and understanding, even appreciation for the ancient theists.
I also think its humorous that you cite Christian philosophers as using fancy sophisticated language to debate their beliefs. Have you read any of the posts here from those of a humanist bent? Or any philosopher for that matter? Are Christians suppose to dumb down their language to meet your expectations that they are a bunch of dimwits?
If you are so quick to dismiss Christianity as bronze age mythology, then you might as well dismiss all thinking prior to what, 1000 AD? The Greeks, Romans, Islam, Buddha, you name it, all the classics gone. Such arrogance.
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Paul, you start off with a profound statement that all morality is a human invention. Is it? You state it's a force deeply seated in the human condition. If so, then how did we invent it if it was already there? The argument also conveniently opens the door for relative moralism. We can therefore set our own squishy standards for what is right or wrong. That, to me, is how we get into trouble and avoid accountability.
As for natural evil see my previous post. To me, pride is the source of evil referred to in the Bible. I'd like to know the difference between natural and un-natural evil in your context.
Your final statement of "a personal God caring for his flock . . " shows you believe God should be 100% caring and protective at all times. Thus no evil, no pain, no suffering, etc. That is not reality nor my expectation of God. He does not represent himself as such in the Bible so I think its disingenuous to attach qualities to Him that were never promised or represented. That is YOUR expectation and I hope you find that in your life.
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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wescrist.
God wants us to take pleasure in our achievements. It's a gift from God to be able to work hard and see the tangible results of our efforts. God wants us to enjoy not only our accomplishments, but our work itself. In fact, it is gross ingratitude not to enjoy our work and what we accomplish through it. So what is the difference between this sense of satisfaction that contributes to a healthy self-esteem and the unhealthy pride that God hates?
Unhealthy pride, by definition, is an excessively high opinion of oneself. This results in a person's reputation, needs, desires, dignity, and public image being his or her main interest and concern, regardless of the effect on others. That is the kind of pride that brought down Satan. Even if you consider all this mythology, the message is still clear and true today as it was then.
Also, taking pot shots at Priests or otherwise is a non-starter. Name any one of your heros and we can find a dozen damning faults. People are imperfect, just don't confuse that with the message.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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The death of a child is universally seen as something negative.
No, no, Paul. All your hand waving about morality is not yet answering the question. It's a simple question, and there is no dodging. I won't "move on" in this discussion until we've settled this one point.
You have twice claimed this same thing, but have refused to answer my simple question: Is it a bad/negative/evil if young Hitler dies of smallpox?
Yes or no. Simple question, simple answer.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Really! You can't deny "free will" to the child Hitler can you? Perhaps, given the right environment, the proper religious upbringing he might have become Mother Theresa.
At any rate, what percentage of the millions of children killed by smallpox are evil dictators?
Your God is either not omnipotent or not good, which is it?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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So, you refuse to answer my question, but then want to ask your own. That sort of "dialog" goes nowhere, so I won't play.
The question, phrased a simpler way, is: Is it ALWAYS a bad when a child dies of smallpox?
Another way to phrase the same question, even more simply, is: Is death always bad?
Either answer the simple question, or we'll just be going around and around in circles, always sparring, never really engaging. The only way I can answer your question, which I've already admitted is a worthy one, is for us to get onto the same page about some basic moral definitions and distinctions. But you try to play "slippery," perhaps afraid of what a rigorous investigation will reveal.
Don't be afraid of getting clear about your terms. We're trying to pin down what "bad" means (and it's not to be conflated with "evil" btw). If you're not willing to get clear about even the basic use of terms, then all your talk of human-generated morality is mere fluff.
I'm happy to get into the problem of evil, which is honestly what I'm trying to do. But I won't do it in haphazard, fluffy fashion. So, let's get clear about what "bad" means, which involves teasing out some common intuitions, and we can go from there.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Ultimately it is always "bad" when a child dies of smallpox.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Thank you, Paul.
So, now I'm trying to flesh out the nature of the badness. Is it the smallpox (death by disease) that makes the death bad? Is it the fact that it's a child ("innocent") that makes the death bad? Is it that smallpox is a painful death that makes the death bad? Some combination of the above?
What I'm getting at is that some deaths are merciful (elimination of intolerable and incurable pain, for example). Presumably in that case it would not be the death itself that is the bad, but instead it is the disease/injury causing the pain that is the bad. Or perhaps it is the pain that is the bad.
Or maybe I'm entirely on the wrong track here. Perhaps you're thinking that what makes the death bad is that universally people don't like dying from smallpox; or universally people don't like seeing their children die (for any cause).
I'm trying to cash out the nature of the badness.
Thanks again.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Since most human beings exhibit a will to live, death is bad. Call it what you want, evil, negative, nasty, whatever you want: it's bad.
Death as a release from pain begs the question: what or who caused the pain? If God is omnipotent then God is also, ultimately, the creator of that pain.
So you're saying God gives us the gift of death that we might be released from his infliction of pain...? That's some God.
I have no expectation of God's nature. If there is an omnipotent deity then surely all aspects of life and creation are in his charge, and this God is certainly not the one Christians worship.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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We sure do seem to be circling the Nietzsche drain here.
Not a bad thing.
Christianity: the world's most elaborate and long-lived revenge fantasy.
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sunflower
climber
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there is a god who has prepared us a place in Heaven someday for those who follow is will and it will be everlasting life if we are on his right side when he decides his old earth has had enough, hope we all get to that place instead of Hell when there will be no peace just torment that will last forever never stopping, pick up the bible and read about the rich man and lazarus and you will see that you dont need scientific proof that this is and will happen in the end, i hope everyone will be but i know there is going to be left out of the good and into the bad they will stay, but there is always time its called the now and present to fing God and Jesus.
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sunflower
climber
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mamny men wrote the bible through through Gods words
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sunflower
climber
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read first chapter of job and see how god showed him how faithful he was to him,Satan kept telling god that wathch job if he could take away things that belong to him and God allowed that to happen but one thing satan couldntd do was to kill job he could do anything he wanted but not his life, you can see what satan did and after all he did to job just read what job did, here is the answe for you if you can't read the bible, after all that had happened to him first thing job did was fell on his knees and prayed to God for everything he has, never stopped believing in him because he knew there was a God.
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