Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
|
The rancor on this thread shouldn't surprise me, but it does. I greatly aprpeciate Erik's work on the two Big Wall guidebooks, and I find some of his bolt replacement, particularly at anchors, laudable.
I can't support all of the retro-bolting, though. I've never done GSR, so I have no comment except to say that if anyone placed "chicken bolts" - meaning a bolt unneeded to support the climber's weight, but one which shortens the length of a potential fall - they've changed the climb by eliminating one of its essential elements, viz. commitment.
To my mind, commitment constitutes the single biggest factor in rating aid difficulty. Adding chicken bolts to an aid pitch strikes me as the same thing as chopping out holds in a difficult free pitch that was previously climbed without them.
Also, as a climber who stands 5' 4 3/4", I never considered adding bolts because I couldn't make the reach. First, I have used since 1969 an "extension arm" consisting of an old-fashioned Chouinard Cliffhanger seated in the pick end of a Yosemite Hammer. With that, I was able to make all the reaches in every bolt ladder I've encountered, including that on the Kor Roof and similar stretches. Also, long reaches provide excellent excuses to force my partner to lead the reachy pitches. Please don't deprive me of that excuse.
John
|
|
gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
|
Seems like the attacks on Madbolter1's last post are attacks on his style, not on his points. I would assume that's because attacking the points themselves is a lot more difficult.
Erik, I have no problems with there being sport routes (although I don't know why a sport climber would make the hike to Wawona Dome for sport route). Also, I'm good with bad bolts and good 1/4" bolts being replaced with beefier stuff. I should note that on Wawona Dome most of the few non-anchor bolts we placed were placed from positions where just getting in a 1/4" bolt was difficult. (Or perhaps I should apologize for being one of those "ground up" old-schoolers.) So if you want to replace in-pitch bolts with 1/2 inchers, we'll be better for it. Where I become troubled is when routes that required commitment become sport climbs. If there was only one route in world, I would be in favor of making it accessible to 5'5" climbers who are maxed at 5.8. Of course, there are countless options for everyone. So I'm saddened when bold and amazing climbs become clip-ups. The case I noted earlier (Valiant Flail) being a case-in-point. Almost every climb at the Riverside Quarry is now a sport climb. Could they not leave the few classics alone? The answer proved to be "no."
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 12:41pm PT
|
That Sloan can't/won't get the name of the FAist of Wings of Steel correct speaks to his credibility as Yosemite Big wall Guidebook author, his tenuous grasp of 'facts,' and/or the extent of his Passive Aggressive Narcissistic Personality Disorder...or vice versa.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
|
Adding new bolts to existing leads simply to make them easier is ethically wrong.
it's very similar to chipping holds to make a free route go at an easier rating.
But it's clear that some people will use whatever justifications their minds need to do what they want.
|
|
thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
|
Is this thread about rock climbing? I'm not sure
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 01:05pm PT
|
Thanks, Mike. I would say the same thing about adding bolts to slab climbing leads. This, too, is nothing new. There was a Chouinard article in Summit in the early 1960's titled, if I remember rightly, "Are Bolts Being Placed By Unqualified Climbers?" That article's lead example was an addition of a bolt on the last 5.9 pitch on Coonyard, that we used to call "The Anklebreaker." That bolt was placed and chopped probably before 1964.
As for the new bolt ladder, if it is sufficiently far from the original route, I would have no particular objection, provided those using the bolt ladder understand that they aren't climbing the Great Slab Route done by Kor, Madsen and Schmitz. Frankly, I doubt that the addition of the bolts will make an historically obscure route into a trade route.
To me, it's like the "new" pitches above the Chimney of Horrors on the NW Face of Higher Cathedral Spire. They are sufficiently removed (well, maybe not that far removed, but sufficiently so) that one may still ascend the original route without the possibility of using the new route - and new bolts - as a way out of the two pitches they bypass. Also, in the latter case, they don't really change the difficulty of the route. If anything, they increase it because of the difficulty of the free climbing. Accordingly, I have no problem there. Now the ability to use big cams in the Chimney of Horrors, in contrast, . . .
John
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 02:39pm PT
|
Oh. Okay. Bagging on my style (or, apparently, lack thereof) is the level of "discussion."
NP, I have better things to do than contribute to a losing cause.
I had hoped that by systematically addressing the pseudo-justifications ES uses, he could be led to see that he has no justification for his retro-bolting. I guess I'm surprised by his narcissistic refusal to respond beyond, "Everything is good. Everything is awesome. Woot!). I shouldn't be surprised by the "rough crowd" the Taco Stand is. But it is clear from ES's non-responses and the sniping that there's nothing more to say here.
Just as with society in general, the relentless trend is toward dumbing-down in the name of "progress."
It's an all-you-can-eat buffet! Have at it.
|
|
dhayan
climber
los angeles, ca
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 03:29pm PT
|
More please.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 04:11pm PT
|
Why are SOME of you trying to make this about RICHARD MARKS?
|
|
anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 04:19pm PT
|
I think Steve Grossman needs to tell us what he thinks!
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 04:52pm PT
|
The Sloan Empire Strikes Back.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
|
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 05:10pm PT
|
Yer little mansy's a hoser...
Yer chum Erik's a poseur...
And a line that's Nanooked is forever a dozer...
Careful what you wish for Dreamgirl, as closer...
|
|
Prod
Trad climber
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 05:17pm PT
|
Hey Wade,
I'd recommend making your junk look larger if you're gonna wear that outfit in the future...
Nice poem Steve!
EDIT Well it was not really "nice", but very well put together.
Cheers,
Prod.
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 05:33pm PT
|
Who would have thunk it?
SG and me are on the same page.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 05:55pm PT
|
The main trail to the base of the Nose was always narrow in spots.
We did litter carry outs on that trail and had to hold branches back and squeeze thru between trees in some places every time.
Then!!!!
One spring I hike to the base and it's like suddenly a 4 lane freeway wide.
Yowza!!!
I ask the climbing ranger if they widened the trail to make the litter carry outs easier.
He said no and went to go look.
LOL somebody did a major number there and it wasn't NPS .....
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 06:03pm PT
|
Only on this thread Dreamboy...
Give a Hoot Don't Pelut or whatever it is you called your observation climb in the Fishers is all about respect for the accomplishments of others isn't it?!?!
You and Mark as defenders of Yosemite traditional climbing values is pretty rich there Jensen.
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 06:09pm PT
|
^^^ It couldn't last for even a second. No surprise, I guess.
Edit: If you can do something (verbal) to bring ES into line somehow, more power to you. Very few "climbers" agree with his tactics.
Uhh... just try to stay on topics you actually know about, though, and refer to climbs that have actually been repeated. If you can do that, you have my full support to talk about ES's ethical violations. :-)
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 06:13pm PT
|
Oh Boy, here we go!!!
Steve is in the house!!
WooT!!
(Yo Steve, Ammon climbed it....said it was hard....there was a movie...you were angry in this movie...)
Stop the drilling!!
There I have said my peace.
|
|
c wilmot
climber
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2015 - 06:28pm PT
|
Ethical violation?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!