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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 18, 2005 - 11:41pm PT
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Just back from the land of the granitic… And here we go again…
http://www.supertopo.com/rockclimbing/route.html?r=ybwatend
In the beta thread linked above, concerning the route Ten Days After on Washington Column, Nanook (Erik Sloan) wrote:
"As of 7/05 all belays look good(everyone has 2 3/8" bolts except the top of #1 which has one 5/16 buttonhead and one 3/8"). Most lead bolts/rivets were replaced. A few poor quality rivets remain."
Once again, Erik, I have some questions for you. Hopefully, you will be able to answer the questions this time.
1) Exactly how many belay bolts and lead bolts/rivets did you replace on Ten Days After?
2) Exactly what did you replace these belay bolts and lead bolts/rivets with (I remember there being quite a few Zamac rivets on this route)?
3) How many of the original holes did you reuse? How many original holes did you not reuse?
4) Did you talk to other climbers in the local climbing community before you re-bolted the route?
5) Did you talk to Eric Brand and/or John Barbella before you re-bolted the route?
6) Do you feel like you have done a proper and ‘ethically correct’ job of replacing bolts on this route?
7) Do you feel that the majority of local Yosemite climbers would agree with your re-bolting style (on this route and others)?
8) Considering that you have been the most active ASCA re-bolter on Yosemite’s big walls, don’t you think that the people who contribute money to the ASCA for the purpose of replacing aging climbing anchors deserve to know how their money is being used and the exact details of the bolt replacements on each route that has been re-bolted? Is that not fair?
You need to tell us what is going on, instead of hiding the details of your re-bolting practices in the shadows, as you have been doing. Please tell us. Be honest.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2005 - 12:40pm PT
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Erik?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 21, 2005 - 01:03pm PT
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Bryan,
Not everyone "gets it" when it comes to bolt and rivet replacement. The tone of your post, and its provocative title, suggest that Erik has done something really heinous up there.
Why don't you tone it down a bit, maybe change the title to "Questions for Erik" or something else that he might actually choose to answer?
If I were Erik, I might be tempted to ignore your post as it is written now, because [it appears to me] you're bashing the hell out of him without knowing exactly what he's done up there.
Now granted, I have read in the past that you have disagreed with some of Erik's past bolting practises. Fair enough. But some of us DO learn from time to time, and perhaps Erik has made some modifications to his practice? You come off sounding like a know-it-all. In fact, you are arguably one of the most knowledgeable people in the whole damn country concerning ethical bolt replacement, but if you come off as holier-than-thou then you sabotage your own credibility.
See, here's the thing, dude - you are easily baited. I trolled the hell out of you before we climbed Bermuda Dunes, and afterwards as well. Before the climb I talked about how we were going to add bolts to all the belays so we could hang our huge loads and extra portaledges. I did manage to reach Steve Schneider [the first ascensionist] by telephone and asked him about adding bolts to the belays, and his exact words were, "go to town!" He gave us carte blanche, although we didn't use it. Quite the opposite. After we got down, I wrote that my elbows were tired from drilling so many bolt holes, just to annoy you. In fact, all 23 of the holes we drilled were using 3/8" bits in existing 1/4" holes, after we had first removed the rusty and ancient bolts from those holes. I think we did a damn fine job reusing every single hole. I have my partner Tom Kasper to thank for it - he put together the equipment we needed, and taught me how to do it.
The problem with your post above is not only how it is written, but that it doesn't teach us anything. Why don't you rewrite it, with a bit of explanation to each of your questions? You could also perhaps cite specific examples.
For instance,
"On such-and-such a route in xxxx year, Erik did this. However I feel he should have done --- because --- is the Better Way, and here's why I believe this. I am wondering if Erik still does this, or has he changed to ---?"
You catch more wall rats with Olde E. than by bashing them over the head with a piton hammer. A crusty old wall rat like you ought to know that.....
Cheers,
Pete
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paulj
climber
utah
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Jul 21, 2005 - 02:28pm PT
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Well, we can state with certainty that Ten Days After is often a victim of poor punctuation.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2005 - 03:39pm PT
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Pete, I do tend to get pretty worked up over this stuff, as everyone can tell. But I do know what is going on and I’m pretty sure that Erik is still doing the same as he always has done. My questions are no different than the guidelines that are outlined on the ASCA website.
http://www.safeclimbing.org/index.htm
See, here's the thing, dude - you are easily baited.
Well, concerning re-bolting ethics, yes – otherwise, no. So what did your trolling accomplish, other than piss me off and make me think that you were clueless? Why should I have helped you out with re-bolting beta when you just wanted to play stupid games?
Before the climb I talked about how we were going to add bolts to all the belays so we could hang our huge loads and extra portaledges.
And it wouldn’t be hard to imagine someone such as you actually doing what you said you were going to do, with your track record of talking about how you have added bivy rivets to belays in the past and how you talk about wanting to clip every bolt in sight. I had actually forgotten about your troll until you just brought it up. NBD now - give it a rest.
If Erik is doing a good job of re-bolting, then why has the ASCA (the president of which is Erik’s guidebook co-author and friend) stopped supporting his re-bolting and why has his ‘mega-stash’ of ASCA donor-supported bolting gear been taken away from him?
Why does Erik feel the need to remove new 1/4" buttonhead lead bolts with hangers (that I have placed within the last few years) and drill the holes out to 3/8” to accommodate his FAT bolts? With all of the other bolts out there in need of replacement, why replace something that a fellow ASCA re-bolter has already replaced? Can Erik just not stand the sight of a 1/4" bolt? This is only part of what is bothering me…
Erik needs to tell the climbing community what he is doing to Yosemite wall routes. But if he chooses not to tell us, then I will.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jul 21, 2005 - 07:38pm PT
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"Considering that you have been the most active ASCA re-bolter on Yosemite’s big walls, don’t you think that the people who contribute money to the ASCA for the purpose of replacing aging climbing anchors deserve to know how their money is being used and the exact details of the bolt replacements on each route that has been re-bolted? Is that not fair?"
Agreed/Fair. I would also like to add that when you are performing a community service, you damn well better listen to the community in which you serve.
Robert
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 21, 2005 - 11:46pm PT
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I heard he uses power too. IMHO that is disrespectful to the first ascensionists who sweated it out with hand drills.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 22, 2005 - 10:51am PT
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just thought since Brian was putting the chips on the table, that we should put ALL of the chips on the table.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 22, 2005 - 11:26am PT
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"If Erik is doing a good job of re-bolting, then why has the ASCA (the president of which is Erik’s guidebook co-author and friend) stopped supporting his re-bolting and why has his ‘mega-stash’ of ASCA donor-supported bolting gear been taken away from him?"
Chris Mac - is this true? If so, why?
"I heard he uses power too."
This is hearsay, and publishing hearsay in an internet forum makes you look like an ass. We have spoken of this before, Young Bull Matt. Even if it happens to be true, you have no business writing it. Your chip has all the credibility of a cowpie.
Now, if you want to read a more credible account, you can click here to [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=83775&f=0&b=0"]read Piton Ron Olevsky's allegations.[/url] Clearly Ron is a wily Old Bull. Understanding the difference between hearsay and a first-hand account is a fundamental step in the Journey from YB to OB.
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DavisGunkie
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 22, 2005 - 12:34pm PT
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actually i think power is only prohibited inthe wilderness area of yosemite, which relevant to this discussion would be the walls of el cap. THough however there is a 6" bolt on the trip that was put in for the star trek movie. i don't think its on the route proper though. you really think that was drilled by hand?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 22, 2005 - 11:06pm PT
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"Even if it happens to be true, you have no business writing it."
oh yeah, and why the f'k not? and who the f'k are you to tell me what I can an can not write here? It isn't hearsay.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 23, 2005 - 10:06am PT
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{Dr. Piton rolls his eyes skyward in exasperation and wonders if this YB is really worth the effort, or if it's time to just give up. Resignedly, he begins to type}
You can write whatever you want, however you have now managed to look like an ass twice in the same post.
Hearsay is when you repeat something that someone else told you without you actually seeing it for yourself. While it may be factual that Erik uses a power drill, until such time as you actually witness it, you have no business perpetuating what you personally have not seen to be true.
Unless you want to keep looking like an ass.
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Salathiel
Trad climber
Fresno, CA
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Jul 23, 2005 - 10:24am PT
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Pete is being the voice of reason here?
Okay everyone, quit snarling and frothing at the mouth and pick those panties of your cracks. Talk to Karl, and align your chakras.
I may be a bit out of school here but, lets say I decided I wanted to replace bolts on aid route x in the valley; I would begin by climbing the route, and hauling up my gear and any 1/4 inch bolts I saw would more than likely be replaced with stronger gear. If I worked for the ASCA, I would have used their resources ahead of time to ask the first ascentionist to see how they felt about it. Then I would re-bolt under those guidelines.
To ask the re-bolter to survey all members of the ASCA for every route the re-bolter decides to clean up is an enormous waste of time, and completely absurd. To simply ask on an internet forum, like this one, is just as absurd, as everyone, including a duffer like myself, will lend their opinion and it really doesn't matter in the first place.
I think Minerals is angry because he was not asked his opinion before the re-bolting.
more pennies from me,
Blur
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Jul 23, 2005 - 02:25pm PT
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"I think Minerals is angry because he was not asked his opinion before the re-bolting."
I don't think that is the issue at all. I think Bryan is asking a legitimate question since he was just up there not too long ago accomplishing the same task. I would be curious too.
"I would begin by climbing the route, and hauling up my gear and any 1/4 inch bolts I saw would more than likely be replaced with stronger gear."
This is the root of the problem. Some rebolters upgrade the size of the bolt which changes the character of the pitch. Being run-out above a 1/4" rivet/bolt is a lot different that being run-out above a 3/8" bolt w/hanger. I think we all agree that keeping the "feel" of an existing route should be our main priority when replacing hardware.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Jul 23, 2005 - 02:57pm PT
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Another point is that some of the 1/4" bolts you're replacing should in fact be REMOVED, not replaced. Note that the original hole count & the current are almost never the same.
As to donations to the ASCA, should we start a bolt 'bounty' system? IE; Here's $10 for the p5 belay of route xyz. Interesting.
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Loom
climber
Sierra Nevada
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Jul 23, 2005 - 04:42pm PT
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Rwedgee and klaus make good points.
Often, rivets or bolts have been added to an existing route. I and many others think these should be removed. But then Erik Sloan comes along and replaces almost EVERYTHING (original and chicken 3/8", 5/16", 1/4" bolts, z-macs, dowels, etc.) with identical 3/8" bolts with hangers. Not only has it changed the nature of the route, but Erik has essentially sabotaged any future effort to restore the route to it's original equipment. Now it is much more difficult, if not impossible, to tell what gear was from the FA.
Sometimes it's easy. Like a bolt ladder that parallels the original dowel ladder. A variation?
I would like him to stop, but I'm not going to "break all his fingers." Maybe some of you are in favor of more and better bolts, and you support Erik. But don't you think it would be a good idea, just from a historical perspective, that while he retrofits a route (or when anyone else does a restoration or rehabilitation)that detailed records are kept and then made public of exactly what was replaced and exactly where it was replaced?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 23, 2005 - 06:57pm PT
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I tell you what Pete. I would pay to see someone hand drill that string of 3/8 inch bolts up on the trip. Hand drill my ass...
The guy is a selfish ass, and it is not the whistle blower putting our climbing freedom in Yosemite at risk, it is the perptrator of the crime.
Then again, considering you are too lazy to carry your haul bags off El Cap rather then throwing them down, I shouldn't expect much support from you.
Personally I think it is a reall shame what this guy and others are doing to Wilderness routes, and I think they should be called on it.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Jul 23, 2005 - 08:26pm PT
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Where's Nanook at with this conversation? What's up Erik?
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Salathiel
Trad climber
Fresno, CA
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Jul 24, 2005 - 08:33am PT
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Replacing natural anchors with bolts is wrong.
This whole concept of the feel of a route sounds pretty subjective though. Ammon, I see your point, and I would certainly not want to "dumb down" a route, but I can see how easy it can be. Of course, I don;t know the re-bolter, or most od the parties here by name, so I cannot make a character assessment , and would refuse to do so until I spent some time with the parties involved.
Thanks for your perspective.
Blur
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jul 24, 2005 - 10:12am PT
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"I think Minerals is angry because he was not asked his opinion before the re-bolting. "
I think you're dead wrong. Bryan is just making a simple point. Eric should defend his stance/actions. I said it ealier in this thread, "when you are performing a community service, you damn well better listen to the community in which you serve."
Just wandering off and trashing popular routes because you think it's the right thing to do is not a community service, it is blatant self service.
Robert
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