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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 21, 2010 - 11:26am PT
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LEB states:
I do not have "yet" to answer for any of these charges because I am not the one responsible for any inappropriate actions which may have occurred against Muslims.
If I take illegal or immoral action based on support or non-support of a particular dogma.....that is another matter. I DO have to answer for what I ACT UPON.
I speak for what I do and how I act.
Good, good. Finally, we are getting to the heart of it.
You want to believe that something is true, and you act upon it--writing in a public forum encouraging others to act a certain way is acting upon it--but it is demonstrably NOT true. That makes it libel, a crime, when one writes something that is a defamation of another, and publishes it to others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
YOU have taken this action, no one else. You have not been quoting someone, but expressing yourself. To wit:
1. You have repeatedly stated that Imam Rouf is part of the network of Muslim Terrorists. He is unequivocally is not.
2. You have repeatedly stated that Imam Rouf supports abhorrent Sharia Law. He does not. You repeatedly state that he supports subjugation of women. He does not. You repeatedly state that he is associated with the Muslim Extremists responsible for 911. He is not.
3. You have repeatedly attacked American leaders who have come to the defense of Imam Rouf as a defender of America, and one of our most important allies.
4. You have repeatedly attacked our ally (Imam Rouf) in the war on terror, meaning that you are on the side of terror. How can you stomach that?
This is serious stuff.
YOU have been doing the above, not someone else. And yet, you refuse to answer for YOUR actions.
You appear to find it convenient to hide behind the screen of the internet, and lob attack bombs against those for whom you have irrational issues. Rather than address the underlying incorrect assumptions, you just keep repeating them. You can't seem to grasp that your assumptions are wrong, it's bizarre.
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michae1
Gym climber
san jose
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Aug 21, 2010 - 11:37am PT
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Yes, Bob A, I can most certainly accept that fact. So the next question is how "close" is appropriate and that is the same question facing Gettysburg right now. As I said, upthread, legality is one thing and propriety is another. We live in a society wherein we blend the two and come up with common cultural standards.
I believe that this issue really boils down to the fact that a large number of US citizens hold fairly negative views of Muslims and Islam. Understandably, huge numbers of non-violent Muslims take exception to that view and perceive that they are being unfairly maligned. There sentiments in this regard are noted and appreciated.
I take it a step further and ask the question of to what degree does their professed ideology predispose them to these public perceptions and to what degree does their "silence" or reluctance to criticize other members of their ethnic group add fuel to the fire. These are questions I raise and on some level they are worth looking at.
The bottom line, Bob A, is that you can't force people to like you. They may have to respect your civil liberties and protections but they do not have to "approve of" you and they do not have to "like" you. And if they want to bad mouth you on the basis of your belief system, you can't stop that either. Essentially, you cannot can't legislate positive sentiments or respect. At best you can legislate protection.
The bottom line is that Islam and Sharia law hold tenets (OK, MH?) which are offensive and alienating to many people. They certainly are to me. Do the Muslims have a right to practice their faith and value system even when it goes counter to culture of the society wherein they live? Absolutely, they do. But then don't bitch and whine when people don't like you and or/shun you. It is the ultimate case of you can't have your cake and eat it too or put another way it is the "price" you pay for practicing what you believe in. This is essentially what all that I am saying to Ken boils down to.
Leb's statement seem's about right>
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 21, 2010 - 11:43am PT
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LEB says:
I believe that this issue really boils down to the fact that a large number of US citizens hold fairly negative views of Muslims and Islam. Understandably, huge numbers of non-violent Muslims take exception to that view and perceive that they are being unfairly maligned. There sentiments in this regard are noted and appreciated.
But not accepted, eh? How many times in US history have we gone through this, where there is a minority that is looked at as inferior, based upon some attribute that is an incorrect stereotype. Jewish Americans, Italian Americans, Black Americans, Catholic Americans ( it was a BIG deal when Kennedy was elected, a Catholic), Japanese Americans, Hispanic Americans, etc. All of it was ugly, and all of it demeaned us as a country. And now, the Muslim Americans.
Just ignore whatever their philosophy ACTUALLY is. Ignore that they don't support the Sharia law that you so hate. Ignore that they are the most hated enemies of the Muslim Extremists. They are your favorite ni**ers at the moment.
And if they want to bad mouth you on the basis of your belief system, you can't stop that either......... The bottom line is that Islam and Sharia law hold tenets (OK, MH?) which are offensive and alienating to many people. They certainly are to me.
Except that some sects of Islam DO NOT hold those tenents, but you refuse to consider that possibility, in spite of having your nose rubbed in it, over and over and over.
You essentially demand that people give up a belief system, and when you find out that they already had, you say "not enough!" A tease.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 21, 2010 - 11:56am PT
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I am trying point out to Mr. M that I do not have to "answer for" the actions of anyone other than myself. For some reason, he seems to want to hold me responsible for them.
There is a bitter sweet irony here. LEB, and the other ST mouth breathers adamantly reject being collectively colored with a single broad brush stroke for the abhorrent actions of a small fraction of their own people. Yet they insist on doing exactly that to the other people. Usually the brown peoples of the world but most particularly ARABS.
Fricken hypocrites. Would you all be satisfied with separate water fountains for white Christians and brown Arabs? Or do all the Muslims have to convert to your version of spirituality to satisfy you?
This 7000 year old flat earth is the center of the universe and white christians are the master race.
All shall love us and despair!
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 21, 2010 - 12:18pm PT
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Get over your self Lois. No one has demanded that you like them. They could care less. In fact your like or dislike of anyone or any group or any country is remarkably insignificant. No one is forcing you to french (oops I meant freedom) kiss lepers.
Are you willing to refrain from doing things they find repulsive and offensive for them to like you?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 21, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
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FatTrad's up awful early this morning, for a pizza delivery guy.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 21, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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LEB says:
Have you lost touch with reality? Are you suggesting that I, personally, meaning LEB have done these things?
NOW you are starting to get it! Everyone else in this thread has been discussing a very specific man, in a very specific place, doing a very specific thing.
YOU, PERSONALLY, have been doing those things! You have been specifically maligning this man, even though you have not used his name.
Are you under the misguided assumption that I am someone different from who I am? I don't know how to break this to you but before you mentioned the name Iman Rouf, I have never heard of the person before. Is he the imam of the proposed mosque? That would make sense. Exactly who is it with whom you think you are speaking to?
Lois E Brenneman.
Is that best defense that you have? In a thread about a specific mosque, being built by a specific man, you repudiate the action, based upon your "feelings" about him, who you describe as:
If given people take a very dim view of certain ethnic groups (and don't want to look at their mosques), it was not because these folks got their names pulled out of a hat. They had a role in creating the discord as well as the people's disdain.
Even money, once the mosque is built, there will be some sort of tribute - either direct or veiled - to the "brave and devoted" men who gave up their lives (i.e. 9/11) serving Allah. The only is question in my mind is whether or not it will be veiled.
This is truly a "thank you, Sir, may I have another" deal (Kevin Bacon film clip up thread for those who missed it)
I don't see the same willingness of the part of the Muslims to openly and loudly censure the evil-doers within their own ranks. They are much more convert and circumspect about what they say and this translates (in our culture) to tacit approval on some level.
When more of the Muslims come out and decry the atrocities committed both here and in their own country, that is when I will afford them the respect you claim they deserve. What I have heard in the way of "disapproval" is not very much and it is certainly not very convincing - more like crocodile tears, if you ask me.
And the most vile and reprehensible link to the Imam:
I wish to point out that "degenerate gamblers" and "patrons of pornography" are minding their own business, living their lives as they see fit. They are not bombing and killing anyone else in the name of a "jihad" or holy war versus the west. Give me a drunken gambler or male who likes to see pictures/movies of naked women (i.e. normal men) any day over a terrorist murderer.
you couldn't be more clear that you are referring to Imam Rouf as a terrorist murderer.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 21, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
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You know, we are caught up in the debate, that it is easy to lose sight of the bigger picture. I remember this quote from the beginning of the thread:
Some of the knee jerk reactions on this site to Islam are quite insane and are very disturbing for me to read. I am an American currently living in a Muslim country and have only experienced honesty and kindness from my neighbors and folks I meet on the street. There are extremists and radicals in every religion including Christianity, Judaism and Islam but this does not mean everyone!! They (Muslims) have many questions about America and are desperately trying to understand us yet we are quick to lump an entire religion as blood thirsty backward barbarians. There is a huge misunderstanding and in my opinion this project is a step in the correct direction towards a greater appreciation of our two different cultures.
If you think about it, simply the proposal for the mosque has resulted in a lot of people taking a serious look at the issue, and learning a lot. I'm sure I did not appreciate the degree to which this Imam, and Sufism in general, have contributed to American/Muslim reconciliation. We either learn to live together, or fight nuclear WWIII.......what's your pleasure?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 21, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
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The more I've read the more I'm in favor of building this mosque exactly where they want it, just don't be surprised when a Wahhabi blows it up.
Actually Jeff I think the greatest threat would be from the good ol home grown Gawd ferin' red neck "Joe the Plumbers" right here in Uhmerka.
I don't care if they like me. So long as they do not violate my civil rights
That sentiment is, I am sure, mutual.
(like blowing up the building while I am working in it) Actually Lois, I think the greatest threat would be from the good ol home grown Gawd ferin' red neck "Joe the Plumbers" right here in Uhmerka.
You have lost it. I have never even heard of the man's name before. I am assuming he is the imam of the proposed Mosque but as for even knowing of his existence on the planet, prior to your publishing his name - I am afraid you are quite mistaken. Again, Lois you know it is not a Mosque and it is not at Ground Zero or even on hallowed ground. Do you understand that or just refuse to accept it?
Since you admit you had no knowledge of this man and were confused by the Faux Noise hyperbole of "terrorist mosque at ground zero" some of us wonder why you would not further educate yourself before making such gross blanket character assassinations?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 21, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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God Bless (Miss) America.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 21, 2010 - 01:37pm PT
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Lisa Sharon Harper.
Executive Director of NY Faith and Justice, author, poet, and award-winning playwright
Posted: August 20, 2010 06:18 AM
Why Christians Should Support the 'Ground Zero Mosque'
Of the 1366 people who died on 9/11, 59 were Muslims. Yet Reuters reported yesterday that New York Governor David Paterson will pressure the developer of the proposed Islamic community center in lower Manhattan to relocate. This is nuts.
As an Evangelical Christian, three pillars of my faith guide my response to this trumped-up controversy: forgiveness rooted in the Cross, the value for Truth, and the call to love our neighbor.
Evangelicals believe in the power of the Cross, the place where Jesus died at the hands of his enemies; the place where Jesus uttered, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do"; the place that makes radical forgiveness possible.
Yet the Muslim world did not perpetrate the terrorist acts of 9/11, so there is actually no need to forgive Muslims for 9/11. The fault sits squarely with Al Qaeda, a small terrorist organization.
And therein lies is the irony. We have failed to do the lesser thing. Jesus calls us to follow him into forgiveness of our enemy. But forgiveness isn't politically profitable. So we have been led by Evangelical hacks like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck to feed on misdirected bitterness rather than follow Jesus' lead.
Fear and hysteria are no excuse for muddled language and twisted truths. Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth and the life." Thus, to suppress truth is to suppress Jesus himself. Why would Jesus care about truth? Because lies destroy people made in the image of God, thus destroying the image of God on Earth. We would do well to remember that the next time Newt Gingrich rants that building a mosque in the shadow of the World Trade Center is like the Nazis putting a swastika next to the Holocaust Museum. Come on.
So what is the truth?
Dr. Sarah Sayeed, president of Women in Islam, Inc. and program director for the Interfaith Center of New York, explained in a recent interview:
There has been a mosque on Warren Street, four blocks from the World Trade Center site, for many many years. My dad used to go there for prayers when I was a little kid. A lot of the Muslim people who work at City Hall or in the financial district would go to that mosque.
The Warren Street Mosque lost its lease and had to find a new location. Some people in that community came together and were able to purchase the building on Park Place and West Broadway, where the Islamic Community Center is now proposed; two blocks closer to Ground Zero. The people in the purchasing community partnered with Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who had another mosque in Tribeca -- also close to Ground Zero. Imam Feisal serves on the board of the Interfaith Center of New York.
Their vision included a full-blown community center that serves the wider community, not just the Muslim community. It's conceived in the tradition of the YMCA, with a pool, a place for seniors to congregate, a place for the arts and a multi-faith chapel and prayer space. So, it's really a cultural center that is being built by a group of Muslims. They're also talking about having an interfaith advisory group to help shape the work in the building.
In light of this truth, to ask this long-established community to relocate is a first step down the long road to ethnic cleansing. It is the antithesis of Jesus' call to love our neighbor.
Governor Patterson and other politicians are trading truth for political points. And worse, without realizing it, they are following the lead of right-wing liar, Pamela Geller, founder of Stop the Islamization of America, a crude website dedicated to stopping the spread of Islam in the U.S. and worldwide. Loonwatch.com lists Geller as "the looniest blogger ever." The mosque controversy traces directly back to Geller. And it is true to form. During the 2008 elections, Geller claimed that Obama was a Muslim and that purple is the official "gangsta" color of the Obama administration -- no connection, just goof-ball.
My faith's values for forgiveness, truth, and love of neighbor lead me to conclude that politicians using the Islamic community center as an opportunity to score political points are mounting a direct assault against the honor of the dead -- not just the 59 Muslim Americans who died but also all those whose lives were stolen by the hands of terrorists on September 11, 2001. They are betraying the heart of our country. Worse, they are betraying the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which guarantees the free exercise of religion. And this is the one freedom Islamic extremists despise most.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 21, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
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The Porn industry would call that a money shot. Right Lois?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 21, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
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Lois, that last post was my all time favorite yours.
Google the lovely Bonobo monkeys for an intriguing look at uninhibited socialization.
You might not want to Goggle "money shot".
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 21, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
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Ken, I applaud your effort, but Lois is never going to understand you. She doesn't realize that just because she doesn't know the name of the Imam, that she has never the less implied that he is a terrorist. She just doesn't get it. She dumps this group of Muslims in with the blanket labels that Americans have of Muslims and thinks they should back off, simply because they are Muslims.
On that note, Maybe we should kick all the Japanese out of Hawaii. They live too close to sacred ground. In fact, it was probably a good thing that we rounded all of them up and put them into camps. We were at war with them after all. According to Jeff, we are at war with Islam, so maybe we should put them all into camps now too.
The bottom line is, either these people were involved in 911, and applauded it, or they didn't. From the looks of things, they weren't involved, they didn't applaud it, and this Imam has worked diligently to overcome radicalism, even writing books on this very subject. Sounds to me like just the kind of preacher I would want to have build a place of worship in that neighborhood, to help heal wounds.
American Japanese as a whole did not attack America during WW2
Their rights were abused and we were lesser because of that.
American Muslims as a whole did not attack America on 911, and didn't applaud it.
America is lesser if it denies these people their rights and freedoms. And it is lesser if it keeps believing the lies of fox news.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 21, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
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LEB said I do not have "yet" to answer for any of these charges because I am not the one responsible for any inappropriate actions which may have occurred against Muslims. I CAN tell you that I am fairly familiar with Islam and Sharia law because I have readings assigned in this area for one of the courses I teach online. I am reasonably familiar with it albeit far from an expert. Moreover, I am most certainly entitled to state with what religious dogma and world cosmology I do or do not have personal accord.
You seem to bypass an important point. We are free to choose whatever principles of religious dogma we wish to support and we do not have to "answer for" our choices. I happen to dislike those principles (and practices, BTW) which Islam espouses and I do not "owe" you or anyone else justification for my preferences. They are just that - preferences and accord with the particular religion ideology.
If I take illegal or immoral action based on support or non-support of a particular dogma - such as blowing up buildings and killing innocents in the name of Allah - that is another matter. I DO have to answer for what I ACT UPON. I do not have to answer for what I believe philosophically nor who I like/dislike on the world stage.
Supporting or denouncing someone's actions is another form of ACTION and it is completely within reason to request that someone clarify their reasoning for doing so. You in particular, LEB, have a long history (5 years now) of saying that you support or oppose someone or something based on its tenets, philosophies or other vague ideological premises and then consistently are unable to articulate specifics about which aspects of those very tenets, philosophies or premises that you support or oppose. We are left to assume that your intellectual rationalizations of your position are but a facade.
If you choose not to PRACTICE the Muslim faith based on disagreements with their basic tenets it is certainly your right and expectation not to have the reasoning behind that decision called into question. When you take a political position about what is right for OTHER PEOPLE to do based on THEIR religion you have no such expectation of protection.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 21, 2010 - 03:42pm PT
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 21, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
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Oh god it's like talking to a 5th grader. "Freedom of speech" ensures that the government cannot stop you from speaking your mind. Chris Mac can make you read only on this site, or ban you all together and wouldn't be violating your "freedom of speech." You are trying to speak with authority on a subject ("guys! I TEACH a class on Islam, ok?") and I'm pointing out that without some more specific explanation, your points have no credibility. You're simply dressing up your anti-Islamic biases as reasoned insight. There's nothing wrong with not liking Islam, but don't pretend it's anything more than an emotional reaction.
Also, you are hilariously saying "I don't have to explain myself" followed by pretending that you DID explain yourself and that it simply wasn't "good enough" for me. Which is it? Are you a Mama Grizzly in training or something?
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Gene
Social climber
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Aug 21, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
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I CAN tell you that I am fairly familiar with Islam and Sharia law because I have readings assigned in this area for one of the courses I teach online.
Lois,
I disagree with your point of view but am happy to stipulate that as someone who is qualified to teach a course that touches on Islam and Sharia law, you may be better qualified than I am to make value judgments on this topic. Please be kind and post the readings you have assigned in your course, perhaps a link to the course syllabus, and anything else you can share about your educational and teaching exposure to matters of Islam. Thanks.
g
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 21, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
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LEB said Once again, what you mean to say is that "I disagree with your ideology......so I will attempt to demean you rather than debate the points you bring forth."
Nice try. Keep racing for that victim position. I actually said pretty specifically in my post (the 90% of it you didn't read) that my issue with you was that you were trying to dress up "I don't like them because I don't like them" as something intellectual. You never actually explained anything specific, just as you still haven't. Since you teach a shourse you must obviously know that Sharia Law, for instance, is a derivation from the Koran not explicitly spelled out in the Koran itself. There are very liberal interpretations of it and very conservative interpretations of it just like there are liberal and conservative interpretations of the Bible and Biblical Law. The Koran, for instance, doesn't say that women have to wear Burkas much like the Bible doesn't say that there is a Pope.
If you said that you found conservative interpretations of Sharia law offensive and oppressive you would probably get 99% agreement on this forum. That begs the question though, will they be teaching a conservative interpretation of Sharia law at this mosque? You don't seem interested in making that distinction.
And a "Mama Grizzly" is one of Palin's new political cohorts. Seeing as how you have stated numerous times your deep devotion to her political philosophy and desire to see her as President I simply assumed that you were up to speed on what she's been doing.
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