Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
|
What about the aluminum ring on the Yates vs. the sown loop on the Fish?
I've only used the Yates so I can't compare, but I like the ring.
|
|
Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
|
I personally haven't found the ring to be an advantage. Russ's have tripled webbing that is plenty easy to grab onto firmly. Also, the only time you grab the end is when things are fully extended, such as first step up onto a new piece, or at belay stations when you're down digging in the bags. The rest of the time you're yarding on just the strap, and the ring is out of the picture.
Some years back Karl Baba described his system which involved hanging an aider off the ring to truly winch himself up using his feet. I don't see the appeal, but it would be easier to do that trick with the Yates than the Fish.
|
|
Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
|
It's been a while since I've aided anything, but I seem to recall not liking the ring as it would get caught in cracks and on gear.
Prod.
|
|
PhotogEC
climber
|
|
|
Aug 13, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
|
For those of you who missed it, Russ put one of his up on eBay, and I just snaked it!
Russ--I'll gladly provide you with some feedback once I've had a chance to use it a bit.
As an aside, I just got a new pair of Yates last week, and the dogbone has 4 bartacks, not 3, so if they were doing 3 for a while, they must have reverted back.
|
|
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
|
Aug 13, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
|
PhotogEC et al:
I just did a super shorty test rig and have sent a sample of this new style along with one of our regular ones to PhotoEC.... he'll try them out. Since I did not want to kill him, I set up a test to see if the method was sound.
Here is the test daisy set up to be pulled.
Note that the cam is NOT engaged, since I really wanted to see how the blue webbing would handle the load. The way the daisy is normally set up, the cam will most likely cut the webbing around 2000lbs.
I stopped the test at 2600lbs and here was the damage to the end I was interested in: Not too bad really.... just slight cutting.
His test daisy has about 1.5" of clip in at the business end, really just enough for a biner. The girthing section is a 5" (or less?) loop, really just big enough to get the buckle through. Hopefully he'll let us know what he thinks.
|
|
PhotogEC
climber
|
|
|
Aug 14, 2009 - 01:25am PT
|
Russ, assuming that you are successful in your attempt to not kill me with your wares, I will indeed report back. Looking forward to getting them!
|
|
adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
|
Aug 14, 2009 - 12:14pm PT
|
@John Mac- Wow, that was fast... The daisies showed up today! Thx! BTW, which is which? Not being a wall climber I've never looked at these sorts of things and don't know the difference. Oh, and thx for the lifetime supply of MP stickers! :-)
@everyone else- Thanks to John Mac we've got a Fish and a Yates to break... How do you all want it done? I can slow pull hydraulically or drop a bunch of steel onto them, so whatever you all decide would be best is fine by me. I'll probably won't have time to do it until Tuesday, so feel free to ponder/discuss for a couple days.
-aric.
|
|
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
|
Aug 14, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
|
Hey Aric, post up a pic of the FISH so I can tell you what vintage it is.... as to webbing specs and style.
I vote for violent drop test, since that is what the failure mode usually is...
|
|
adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
|
Aug 14, 2009 - 12:50pm PT
|
Hmmm... Probably safe to assume the one with the tag that says "YATES" isn't from FISH, huh? It was curled up under the end of the bartack and I didn't see it earlier.
Here's some pics. Looks like they use the same buckle and I suspect the ring on the YATES one is a SMC Rap Ring. The YATES uses all flat web and the FISH uses flat for the adjustable part and climb-spec tube for the small loop. You can't see it in the pics, but the FISH has an extra layer of web on the buckle (think BD C4 sling) and the Yates does not. Also the small loop on the FISH is flat while the YATES has the sides folded inwards and stitched together at the top, giving it a narrower profile.
|
|
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
|
Aug 14, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
|
Cool... those look like fairly recent models and would be similar to identical to the stuff I would produce today. Tubular web for the clip and regular (not the super thick stuff) 1" flat for the main webbing. The replacement web should be more or less the same 1" webbing also.
Edit: one thing to note: Rub your finger on the teeth inside the cam.... even though the buckles may look the same or real close, Ancra has at least two styles of "teeth". I've used both styles, one being fairly smooth teeth, and the other being quite sharp or aggressive.
|
|
adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
|
Aug 14, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
|
Now that you mention it, the teeth _are_ different! On the YATES the teeth stay perpendicular to the curve of the lever and are ~8tpi. On the FISH they get somewhat off-perpendicular when it gets to the end of the curve and are ~9tpi. I don't have an easy way to measure tooth depth at the moment, but will rig something up later. If Ancra lists that sort of thing in their catalog the numbers stamped on the buckles are BM for the FISH (both on the frame and the cam) and CMG (frame) and PC (cam) for the YATES (I'm assuming those are part numbers, as they're the only things stamped on there).
|
|
John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
|
|
|
Aug 14, 2009 - 08:12pm PT
|
The Yates is the yellow one!
Hopefully someone will send you a Metolius aider for testing so we can do a three way comparison.
|
|
Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2009 - 12:08am PT
|
100 kg load on the adjustable daisy after a drop test
[/url]
|
|
Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2009 - 01:03am PT
|
It'll be interesting to see how these tests shake out.
My experience has been with Yates and I am a large dude (265lbs. without rack/rope) and I've taken a full length daisy fall onto my Yates and bent a BD Cliffhanger to 90 degrees at which point it blew off it's solid placement but the Yates adjustable daisy did not break.
I was pleased... with the daisy at least.
Pete
How exactly do you adjust the Yates while weighted with one hand? It seems to me that depressing the buckle while weighting it would lengthen the daisy uncontrolably.
I did a similiar thing as a rookie window washer on a gri-gri thinking I could just squeeze the cam open ever so slightly with my left hand while manipulating something with my right. Unfortunately I was about six feet over some guys platic roof on his deck and I promptly put my foot through it. Live and learn.
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2009 - 01:13am PT
|
Having your partner or another piece of weighted webbing accidently open up the adjustable buckle on your daisy is pretty horrifying, although in my personal experience (and as luck would have it), the cam has always closed up after no more than a foot or two. It has happened enough that I keep one eye peeled and warn my non-adjustable-using partners that they will send me around the bend if they lay into my buckle.
|
|
adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
|
Aug 16, 2009 - 11:42am PT
|
Quick bump as a reminder that I need you all to decide to tell me how to test these... I've never done aid/wall so have no idea how you typically use these things.
Couple questions:
1. When these things do slip, what are you doing? Hanging/bouncing/heavily loaded while hauling? It would be easy enough to rig the puller to pull to a couple kN and stop, allowing us to get some data on that prior to breaking them in a drop.
2. When adjusting I assume it is usually not weighted? By which I mean would a reading on the force needed to pull the free end through the buckle be of any use?
3. Similarly, any use in a reading of the force necessary to pull through the buckle when weighted? And if so, how much weight?
4. Anyone have a recent vintage Yates and wouldn't mind counting the teeth on their buckle? There's not really a point in doing a comparison if they use the same buckle, so I'm looking to verify that there's some consistency in the buckles being different on FISH and YATES.
5. Given that both use 1" flat web for the adjustable part I'm thinking we may want to cut off the beat up Yellow web on the YATES and replace it with the new Orange FISH web. Not really a fair comparison of pull force when there's fat, shredded web on the YATES and practically new web on the FISH.
6. @John Mac- For the Metolius I assume you mean the Easy Daisy, not the Easy Aider?
Thoughts?
|
|
adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
|
Aug 16, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
|
Stopped by the local REI and not surprisingly no dice on the Metolius Easy Aider. Guess I could order one unless someone happens to have one they'd be willing to donate...
|
|
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
|
Aug 16, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
|
Welcome to the world of non equal testing environments Aric!
The buckles are different even within the same part number.... I always found that weird. Tooth radius and density varies, as does the cam trigger and the peening process for holding the cam in place. I have received both kinds, mixed, in the same order.
The webbing that I use even though it is all 1" flat, can be thicker per color, have a heavier hand, or just be flat out be different across the board. Some of it is so thick that the buckles will barely work... others feel like tissue.
Not sure what to tell ya... the orange webbing if you check it real close is slicker and probably thicker and will have a different feel than the purple in the buckle.... yet they are both listed as "the same" from the supplier.
I say just drop test them and lets all hope none of them fail at like 300lbs!
|
|
adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
|
Well, no answers to my questions above yet so I've gone ahead and made some assumptions and started formulating a plan...
What'll be tested:
1. I figure I may as well include a Metolius Easy Daisy (EDIT) in this, so went ahead and ordered one. Should be here late in the week.
2. I missed the mention of the Petzl Quickfix earlier in the thread and will include one of those as well if there's interest. Sounds as if it's quite weak though, so I figured I'd ask if anyone even uses it before blowing $30 on it. For some reason my wife doesn't like when I buy gear with the sole intention of breaking it....
3. Teh Google turned up [url="http://www.bigwalls.com/forum2/index.php?topic=534.0"]this DIY adjustable daisy (EDIT)[/url], which looks quite easy rig up.
4. [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=925984&tn=28"]Jay Wood's DIY adjustable daisy (EDIT)[/url] from earlier in the thread is similar to the other DIY one, but possibly a bit harder to rig due to not having a similar buckle to cannibalize. I may be able to come up with something though, and if so will include it.
The tests:
1. Force required to pull through when unweighted.
2. Force required to pull through with 100# hanging from it (load cells on weighted side, free side and top anchor)
2b. Force to extend/ease of extension when unloaded
2c. Ease of extending when loaded
3. Load to 2 or 3kN (perhaps higher?) and see what happens, taking note of creep and/or failure
4. 10 successive 6" drops of 150#, noting creep/failure
5. FF1 drop of 150# to finish it off
That's about all I can come up with. Anything else or something to change?
-aric.
EDIT because I accidentally swapped terms...
EDITx2- Added tests 2b and 2c
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!