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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jun 27, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
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Haha ok here we go, staples round 7.
Good points here, u guys & gal r right that talking to the FAist is the "usual" protocol & the approach I would "usually" take if I was inspired to re-fit someone else's route. I hope my post wasn't misinterpreted as disrespect towards RB as he is definitely an example of determination, passion, & hard work in the climbing community. Just pointing out that he is also not your "usual" FAist. I've chatted with him a few times & he's pretty sure that his routes are good the way they are from what I can tell. I can't see a way that he would voluntarily agree to having his routes or hardware changed or altered & not be pissed or disrespected that someone would suggest such a thing to someone who has been doing it for so long. It's like walking up to Luongo & telling him if he used an Easton blocker he wouldn't let in so many goals.
This is what many locals tried to do a few yrs back when the staples appeared, he was approached in a civil, rational way & he wouldnt have any of it, subsequently all the staples were chopped anyways, most weren't replaced & the climbing community of squamish decided that they were not acceptable or safe or up to a local hardware standard that was trying to be established.I think there's even a route at Murrin called "staples away".
Since then theres a number of ppl still, including local guides who haven't quit the crusade against the staples & will chop em on sight knowing damn well who put them in & not think twice- the fact that your looking at replacing them Mike is probably offering more of a service to him & his staple routes than many anti staplers out there would but I'm not so sure he will see it that way.
Myself, i could care less & just stay the hell away from staples cuz they scratch up the anodization on my fancy wire gates & they usually are placed on ledgy featureless 10c slabs that offer less than interesting climbing. He seems to use real bolts on the more quality pitches, maybe for that reason. Im sure theres a few lurking on here who know someone or maybe themselves have had a hand in upgrading some of his anchors or routes without his knowledge in this hear no evil see no evil manner.
He also told me that he only flies one particular airline because they give u free socks & they are the only socks that fit under his climbing shoes properly & that he tries to grab as many pairs as possible while in the air to stock up & has been doing so for 30 yrs! Lol.
All that yakkity yak said I withdrawal my chop away comment, shoulda thought that thru a bit more before supertoproping it, but I am really interested in hearing how this transpires, Big Mike is a kind soul so maybe he can succeed where others have not. You're just going to have to convince to him to admit that his hardware is not up to snuff & that ur the guy who should replace it. Good luck, hope u got a plan B :-)
I do think that nobody should need permission though to replace janky & potentially dangerous hardware on climbs used by the general public in hi traffic areas like those around here & that FAist's should put up routes with the local standard in mind.
Too bad RB doesn't post up on here it would be awesome to have him here to tell his side of the staple story.
End rant. I'm gunna go get stoned & confine myself to 2 sentence posts. In case u wasted ur time reading this one here's a picture as ur reward:-)
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
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This seems like a good place to repost the conversation Kyle had with Robin in April.
"Oh, by the way, had a chat with Robin yesterday and he asked about you. He sends his best regards and we talked a fair bit on staples and his thorough testing on them. He also explained how they are actually much safer than most of these other bolts because bolts can pop out if the rock inside where the bolt is deteriorates. With the glue ins, water can not penatrate the epoxy. A good example was the route we were climbing right beside him: catscan. The bolts were rusty and had probably compromised the rock that we could not see. He says people silicone or something to keep water out nowadays, but you can't tell from looking."
I think i would definitely need to find a route that i thought was really worthy of the effort, before i go yanking staples and patching holes. I am excited about fixing up some anchors though which i will speak with Robin about, although i can't see why he would object...
Nice pic Ryan, i still have yet to check out the north north.
Edit By fixing anchors i mean changing out three link chains with washers and nuts for hangers with rings.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 28, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
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When I was in Squamish a couple of weeks ago I ran into John Howe in Starbucks. Hadn't seen him for a while, and we had a nice chat. Which included the subject of staples.
This comment by Glenn on the previous page made me think of it:
Talk to Robin. He (probably) won't bite your head off. He doesn't own the routes he put up, but I think it's polite to ask him before ripping out the staples.
When I asked John about the whole staple thing he just shook his head and said [I'm paraphrasing here] that virtually everyone in the local climbing community had tried to explain to Robin that the staples didn't belong, but that Robin just didn't care.
He probably knows Robin as well as anyone, and I've never heard him say anything mean-spirited or disrespectful about the man. And he wasn't doing that here. Just stating the simple fact that the opinion of the rest of the community was immaterial to Dr. B.
So, Mike, go ahead and talk to him if you want. But you should probably have a Plan B in place for when he doesn't grant permission to pull those staples.
And a couple of caveats to all of the above: First, I know nothing about the safety of the staples, and am not advocating anything. It's been long enough since I was part of the Squamish climbing community that I don't get a vote. And second, through the twenty-some years that I was a part of the Squamish community I knew Robin fairly well. And like JH, I have nothing bad or negative to say about him. But he does march to the beat of his own drum, and has never shown any interest in what others think about that.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Jun 28, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
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You're just going to have to convince to him to admit that his hardware is not up to snuff
I wouldn't bother going down that route, why not just ask if he minds you swapping some of his new anchors for some expensive ones, I cant imagine he would mind.
If you start out dissing his anchor choice then the conversation is going to go where it has gone before.
Personally I have no problems with staples, they are pretty common in other parts of the world. Whether they belong in Squamish as BK pointed out a few pages back is something else all together.
Thanks for the community service Mike
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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Jun 28, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
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I've never had anything but pleasant conversations with Robin. He certainly goes his own way, which is admirable. Nice guy.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
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Thanks for the community service Mike
You're welcome! I wish i didn't have to deal with politics first....
I need to go say hi to Robin anyways.
The thing that scares me about staples is the micro fractures between the holes for the u-bolts. And the glue not holding them in the rock if they aren't properly notched.
The Staple or U Bolt.
You may or may not be aware that these were in common use in Germany for many years. The Germans being thorough chaps go around testing bolts at regular intervals and the results led to two decisions. 1) To remove all staples immediatly as none achieved the required test figures. 2) To recommend the removal/changing of all bolt-in bolts after 10 yrs, all new bolt-ins should be sealed against water ingress, either as in the construction industry with a rubber ring, or with a silicon sealant, and to discourage the use of bolt-ins in areas subject to freeze/thaw conditions.
The test results for staples were not published by the DAV as far as I know but we made and tested some. 8mm dia rod with 80mm legs achieved around 6 to 8 kN, When I knurled the legs to improve the bond the rock failed, generally at around 12kN. Examination of the failure showed that drilling two holes so close together seriously weakens the rock, according to friends in the quarry industry the drilling produces micro-fractures and these link up producing an area of shattered rock between the holes. (A similar effect to when you try to fit a expansion plug in a masonary wall near to an old one). Another problem we noticed was that on the bolts with bonding failure only one leg failed, implying that the load is not evenly shared, therefore the bonding for each leg must be capable of withstanding the proof load.
http://www.bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm
Not to mention this horrible idea..
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jun 28, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
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Mike- That photo sequence u posted can happen with regular bolt hangers as well if the gates on the quickdraws are opposing.
This sums it up here:
Barley is iconoclastic in the best way. He gleefully engages any one every time they thinks they can take him on over his climbing practices. The boy loves the struggle but there's no changing his mind !
There isn't a more polite, yet resolute man climbing in Squamish.
I like this one too that Luke found somewhere.
Robin Barley.
I find it best, and considerably less frustrating, to see Robin less as a climber or developer of routes and more of a force of nature. You can get upset all you want at the approaching storm, shake your fist at the clouds, even yell at the rain. But the storm -like Barely- couldn't care less what you think and will not be stopped. So like the storm, it's best to just sit back, watch in wild wonder then go out and pick up the pieces after the storm has passed.
Aaron.
So seriously, can anyone think of an individual in North America who has put up anywhere close to the number of pitches as RB has??
On another note. Here's a site u should click on, it's a good buddies. He takes beautiful photos of climbing, snowboarding, surfing, kayaking, etc.
http://philtifo.com/
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
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Very true Ryan. I didn't notice it was pulling the wrong way.. Duh.
Phil's work is awesome. He had some sweet shots hanging in Splitz awhile back, not sure if it's still up or not. Remy was in one!
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
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Sandra and i got out for some toprope laps on Burgers this evening.
Any one else get some pitches in?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 29, 2013 - 10:39pm PT
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Any one else get some pitches in?
We went hunting for a new cliff, but came back empty-handed. So not only no pitches -- no rock.
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Adrian MacNair
Boulder climber
Vancouver
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Jun 29, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
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Yo kids, I'm moving and I need to get rid of some junk. That includes these old climbing ropes. WYSIWYG: two 13-year-old 10.5mm 50m dynamics mostly used in the gym, a little outside. I wouldn't climb on them anymore but you could use them for hauling or rigging or something else, like a rap line backup.
Anyone who wants them for free gimme a call, I'm in Vancouver. 778-737-7065
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
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Hanging at the apron with Relic
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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Jun 30, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
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You're going to bake up there this afternoon!
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
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Ya we would've!
Relic ropegunned me up rambles this morning. It was pretty fun, after we got started. Unfortunately a couple beat us to it and decided that they had to do it in four pitches which took forever... Lol
While i waited i posted some pics at the bottom.
Derek Woolgar photo
Me on the traverse
Derek Woolgar photo
Pano from the second belay
Selfie at the top of Rambles! FPFA (First paraplegic free ascent)
Top pano
This was as far as i wanted to go today, we rapped off and went for lunch at Zepyhr.
Thanks for the ride Relic!!
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jun 30, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
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Nice one boys! Good to see some tiny cars below u Mike!
I tried to go bouldering today, even had some aspirations until i saw these guys havin a weenie roast on a portaledge on Humpty Dumpty so I yelled at them for awhile from psyche ledge which was so exhausting from the heat that I just ended up sleeping on my crashpad for a bit until I had to go to work. Looks like early starts or night climbing for the next while.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Jun 30, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
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Now we're talking.
31 in squish today but still primo riding in the damp forest
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Jun 30, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
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Got to show some Vermont friends around Squish Friday and Saturday. They had a ton of fun after sloshing around in the previous six days of rain and goo. It was amazing how the sun and light breeze dried out the crags.
Enjoy the holiday tomorrow!
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 30, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
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Sh*t, is it just me who's now going: straight or strait?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 30, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
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Sh*t, is it just me who's now going: straight or strait?
All the cool people went gay ages ago, so all the straights who are facing the straitened circumstance of being confused by their straightness are irrelevant to the modern world. And that's the strai(gh)t dope!
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Once the mercury passes 30 things get a little confusing.
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