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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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I don't believe any of us know the whole story.
However, tasing seems to me, to be over reacting to a "victimless" crime, regardless if he did try to evade arrest. Strong arm a tourist, rob the deli, skip out on your mountain room bar tab( just kidding, I've been thrown out of there not once, not twice, but on three occasions, but I still don't condone pulling a runner) tase the sh#t out of him. But not for flying. Not too long ago, a flyer drown after being pursued into the Merced. Whether or not it had merit, it seemed like it could have been a wrongful death suit waiting to happen.
I agree with much of what Tom( El-Cap pics) wrote several posts up. Obviously things need to change and the change has to be bi-lateral and bi partisan. Seems like the laws here are where the pot laws were in the 50's and early 60's. Perhaps a dialog between a base/flyer colalition and the NPS would be conducive to avoiding this kind of reaction in the future.
Till then, Ammon, please talk only to your legal guys. Take the free and very good legal advise here on this forum. Good luck mate.!
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AstroArlo
Trad climber
Jackson, WY
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As a volunteer EMT who works frequently with both Grand Teton park rangers, local sheriff deputies, and city police officers, I can say that too many here are painting them as gun happy loose cannons violating everyone's rights and employing exceessive force just because they can.
Nothing is farther from the truth!
Everyone should spend a few days on patrol with a LEO to see how they are extremely patient, tolerant, and try to avoid causing any physical harm to the public which they serve.
Believe me, these honorable people tolerate a huge amount of crap and abuse from the public, but respond to the abuse with calmness and respect for the people they are dealing with. I suspect that many of the people here would be pounding the crap out of somebody who gave them 1/4 the abuse that the LEO's graciously put up with. In my experience observing 100's of interactions between LEO's and the public, it takes significant escalation and provocation on the part of the public before any force by LEOs is utilized. Are there bad cops? yup. Are there as#@&%e climbers? yup. But these are the exceptions rather than the rule.
All LEOs want is to be respected and to follow their instructions. If you respect them, follow their instructions, and tell the truth, you'll come through unscathed. Yes, you might get a ticket, or even be arrested, but you probably broke a law. You'll get the chance to prove your case in court.
On my way back from Yosemite in May, I got pulled over by a Highway Patrolman in Winnemucca. I was doing 72 in a 65. He asked me how fast I was going....I told him when I looked down at the speedometer I was going over 70 mph, and I knew it was a 65 zone. We talked about this for a couple of minutes, and then ended up in a friendly conversation about my trip and climbs in Yosemite for about 15 minutes. I got a warning and went about my business...the awesome power of respect and honesty!
As far as base jumping being a victimless crime, consider what would happen if another victimless crime, illegal camping, were allowed to proceed unenforced in Yosemite. Imagine what Yosemite would be like if people were allowed to camp wherever, whenever, and for as long as they liked...it would not be a pretty sight, and Yosemite's environment would be rapidly destroyed. Although the camping regs are a hassle, I totally agree that they are necessary.
If you don't like the base jumping laws, then work to get them changed. Breaking the law and then running from the authorities is not a great way to make your case! Respecting the law and the LEOs, demonstrating that you care about Yosemite and that you are responsible adults, and working through the right channels is the only way things are going to change.
But also accept that the general public may think that Yosemite is not a place for base jumping. There are many things that are banned in National Parks which some people think should be legal, but the majority think should not.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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So they should be able to tase illegal campers too?
And Yoko and Lois go unscathed?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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I'm not a huge fan of LEO in general, but . . .
Seems to me that when you're caught, you're caught, and you should comply with LEO instructions from that point on.
If you don't, you've just seriously escalated the situation, and no matter how trivial it was when it started, it isn't from that point on.
Put another way, evading is a serious crime in and of itself, and that trumps the fact that the evasion may have been due to a minor crime. Lots of other people have said the same thing, just bears repeating.
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sammy-pajamy
Boulder climber
citrus heights ca
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dingus milktoast since your impossible to reach by phone im in fort bragg with linda and her two monsters and aunt kenzi for the weekend in some hotel and im going bouldering tmrw for sure on some beach over here if we can figure out the tide things get ahold of me or andy pop love you
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I am 48 years old.. Never been roughed up or tasered by the cops. It's actually pretty easy to not get tasered. Even if have broken the law and pissed them off they usualy calm down pretty quick if you grovel properly when caught.
Life is tough when you are stupid. Simple lesson that I learned many moons ago. Calling cops names, giveing them the finger, back talking, etc is all a real bad idea. I was smart enough to learn these things from watching other stupid people mouth off to the cops and observing the results.
It may not be right but it is a plain and simple fact that cops have complete and ultimate power over your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
The only way to deal with them and have a happy ending to the story is to follow the yes sir, no sir path and hope for the best.
If the cops are wrong prove it in court.. Out on the street you have no chance and things will get dramaticly worse for you if you argue with them.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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We seem to have a real dichotomy of opinion here, but it boils down to what constitutes "excessive force" for a crime, an infraction of rules, violation of a "regulation." These all would incur a response from a LEO, but use of a baton or tasering a subject seems to be a bit excessive as a response, especially in the case of a simple rule infraction or violation of a regulation.
The simple fact of providing a near-lethal force option to the LEOs in the form of a taser gun is essentially wrong in and of itself.. In the old days, the LEO simply used training to physically subdue the subject.
Last year in Glenrock, WY. at the "Deer Creek Days" parade, an LEO tasered a 72 year old rancher who was driving an antique tractor in the parade and failed to comply with an order to turn (either left or right--I don't recall).
The LEO then tasered the driver who couldn't hear due to being hearing impaired! His hearing aid had been turned off due to the racket generated by the old engine.
The LEO is now on "administrative leave" pending dismissal from the police force.
Correction added in edit: He HAS been dismissed from the Police Department for excessive use of force.
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Anywhere I like
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me and some friends had a run in with LEO's in the Valley this spring. We just came down from a few days on LA Direct, got some pizza and some beers in Curry, thenwere heading out to find a spot to camp,. (unregistered, obviously) My friend swerved slightly near Lower Yosemite Falls and immediately Jacobs was on us.
Now the guy driving was not stoned, in fact, had not smoked pot in almost a year, but he is a total hippie, and his car fits the part. Jacobs said he smelled pot and was gonna search, bro says you don't have me consent, Jacobs doesn't care. F*#king as#@&%e nearly broke my fingers while searching me. Anyway, he finds a lot of something, bro gets ticket, we sleep in El Portal, only to return the they Valley in the AM.
Kinda rambling, but what I am trying to say is that those LEO's are c*#ks@ckers, p[lain and simple. I have seen them walk thru C4 armed, heavily, just to make there presence known. When we were sitting there with a mag-lite in our faces, I realized they would love it if you ran. Would relish the chance to chase you and taze you. And those Nazi fvcks are big and fit.
Of course the use of a taser was unwarranted. But I am sure those LEOs laughed it up afterward.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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on the other hand, i have personally had really good experiences with yosemite law enforcement.
i am sure there is something to what the guy up-thread from WY said about his experiences as well.
that said, it's not the average interaction that should set the bar, it's the worst.
tasers need to be a last resort rather than a first resort. an alternative to a bator or firearm, rather than a means for expediency or domination of a bad attitude.
recently there was a case in the south somewhere when the cops literally used a taser to try and get someone to answer a question about a 3rd party. there is a video on youtube of a guy at an A's game getting tasered and he's just refusing to get out of his seat.
enough is enough already.
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jstan
climber
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Orig's post has to be a troll. Loaded with attitude as the post is you can imagine what the response to the officer must have been like. And the post gives more than enough data to support an officer's decision reasonable cause existed. A fantastic job in troll construction. A work of art.
Even the lead in was a beaut. Several days on the Lost Arrow? Other than a tight rope expedition I can't imagine.
Absolutely great piece!
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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i'm old, so wtf.
you guys tell me who the ranger was and i'll poor gas on him and torch him in the middle of camp 4 and we can roast marshmellows on the guys ass,
hell, ill do 10 years in rikers to prove my point,
i've had it with this punk, my blood is starting to boil,
no man will hold sway over his fellow humans, not in my world,
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Original said... Anyway, he finds a lot of something, bro gets ticket, we sleep in El Portal, only to return the they Valley in the AM.
and you are complaining?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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whether he is or is not what you describe, that would have no impact on either the decision process of the officers at the game, or the criteria for use of a taser in a single scenario.
as i said before, it's not acceptable to essentially transfer the risk from the officer to the subject unless the taser is used as a means of last resort, period.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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can you re write that so it actually makes sense?
or am i just stoned?
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Matt says...
there is a video on youtube of a guy at an A's game getting tasered and he's just refusing to get out of his seat.
enough is enough already.
So are you suggesting they should have tried to lift him and carry him? And how many cops would need to be injured before a Taser was a good idea?
A smaller cop should have to physically fight some big dude first before they could resort to a Taser?
Its OK for cops to risk injury or worse by physically interacting with a combative subject, as long as they don't injure or cause any pain to the subject?
Are you kidding?
Cops are just regular people, not super ninja fighters. Many are woman.
Even the biggest badass cops I know, and some are huge guys with military background, still acknowledge the dangers of subduing a suspect.
You never know what someone will do to get away.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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locker,
I got an email from a certain cop who used to post here who thought I was being serious. LOL
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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talk about travel, what I am up to,where i am going, and why i am such a cool ass motherf*#ker.
Hahahahaha! Good post Riley.
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grunter
Social climber
confusion
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Riley, do you need attention, recognition, didn't mommy love you right. Your so full of yourself. Have you ever noticed how often you try to focus attention on yourself. My but you are important saving all those lives. Where do you live? Barstow. Rotflmao. Now that's a place to save the world from, center of the known universe. Dude. Does the phrase pompous self important ass ring any bells with you.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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fattrad- "...suspect that most would ultimately preferred to getting tased than getting hit with blunt instrument."
locker- "I'd take the TAZING any day."
I agree with the above statements generally speaking(not taking any stance in regards to Ammon).
But something obviously went wrong last night in Washington(state)!!
edit: Sorry, it was a VA man(Washington Post)...my bad.
Regardless, he died from a tazing. Evidently he was running around screaming in the middle of the night and his neighbors called the police who thought it was in the dudes, theirs(when he tried to tackle one of them)and the neighberhoods best interest to taze him.
He stopped breathing after one jolt of the gun, and resuscitation was futile.
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